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Author Topic: The Necessity of the Sacraments  (Read 59543 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2024, 03:49:20 PM »
[Emphasis added above.]

A cautionary side comment: Be very careful in the use of analogy. This works only as an illustrative didactic tool where there is a clear correspondence, not where certain attributes of the items being compared might elicit an inapplicable premise.

Penance is Penance. Baptism is Baptism. Penance requires reason and the capacity to accuse oneself in detail after purposeful reflection. This requirement does not apply to Baptism per se, as is obvious in the section from Pope Siricius (emphasis added):

So while I'm not prepared to comment on necessity, I will point again to the problem of desire/intent/votum. It's one thing to discuss the generalities of sacraments, but it's another entirely to impute particular votum and then ride upon that. Votum for Penance is its own thing, and it doesn't serve to explicate desire for Baptism.

Caution is always good.

I follow the lead of a pretty reliable source, the Council of Trent, in looking to penance and baptism together, since Trent uses them analogously, and in the specific context of discussion - sacramental necessity.


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"This sacrament of penance, moreover, is necessary for the salvation of those who have fallen after baptism, as baptism itself is for those as yet not regenerated."

Moreover, we are also told in the Holy Office letter:

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In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (<Denzinger>, nn. 797, 807).

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/letter-to-the-archbishop-of-boston-2076

Again, we have a Magisterial, or at least purported Magisterial, authority using the two sacraments analogously, and in the specific context of sacramental necessity.

Of course there is a difference between the sacraments. If you want to take the difference, apply it to the context of sacramental necessity, and say that the analogy is inapt, by all means go ahead.

It seems apt to me, and to the authors of the HOF and the Fathers of Trent. But perhaps you are on to something.

Shoot.


Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2024, 06:09:18 PM »
Caution is always good.

I follow the lead of a pretty reliable source, the Council of Trent, in looking to penance and baptism together, since Trent uses them analogously, and in the specific context of discussion - sacramental necessity.

Moreover, we are also told in the Holy Office letter:

Again, we have a Magisterial, or at least purported Magisterial, authority using the two sacraments analogously, and in the specific context of sacramental necessity.

Of course there is a difference between the sacraments. If you want to take the difference, apply it to the context of sacramental necessity, and say that the analogy is inapt, by all means go ahead.

It seems apt to me, and to the authors of the HOF and the Fathers of Trent. But perhaps you are on to something.

Shoot.

It was a cautionary side comment, and it was as to method not as to substance (other than peripherally with regard to distinctions in procedural votum between those two sacraments). As you note above (emphasis added) the parallel is necessity (leaving aside, for the sake of completing this reply, whether that necessity speaks to justification or to salvation).

The ends sought by/for the soul via the two sacraments are the same, yet the means by which a given soul, as catechumen-subsequently-baptized penitent, obtains these ends at two different moments in time are not (re your citation of Pope Siricius regarding adult Baptism). There appears to be little if any question as to what constitutes the sacrament of Penance. There appears to remain some question as to what exactly (once we depart from the usual form and matter) constitutes the sacrament of Baptism.

If A is a discrete set while B is not, then it might be prudent to refrain from stating that A and B in all of their respective attributes (beyond general necessity) are analogous. Otherwise, that would be an opening to avoidable confusion.

As to reliance on Trent, in Reply #13 you said as well:

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I see an argument against my position by saying that the Catechism implies that a BoD would apply to all catechumen in such circuмstances. But I don't think it can be read that way, and think my analogy to the sacrament of penance applies.
Might someone not already fully adept in that element of the Catechism infer that the analogy in use here is your reading?

Earlier I also said clearly that I don't pretend to deal with the main topic of sacramental necessity. I leave that to those with the requisite knowledge, whose diligence toward the subject and whose care for the clarity of its treatment I do appreciate.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2024, 07:47:23 AM »

It was a cautionary side comment, and it was as to method not as to substance (other than peripherally with regard to distinctions in procedural votum between those two sacraments). As you note above (emphasis added) the parallel is necessity (leaving aside, for the sake of completing this reply, whether that necessity speaks to justification or to salvation).

The ends sought by/for the soul via the two sacraments are the same, yet the means by which a given soul, as catechumen-subsequently-baptized penitent, obtains these ends at two different moments in time are not (re your citation of Pope Siricius regarding adult Baptism). There appears to be little if any question as to what constitutes the sacrament of Penance. There appears to remain some question as to what exactly (once we depart from the usual form and matter) constitutes the sacrament of Baptism.

If A is a discrete set while B is not, then it might be prudent to refrain from stating that A and B in all of their respective attributes (beyond general necessity) are analogous. Otherwise, that would be an opening to avoidable confusion.

As to reliance on Trent, in Reply #13 you said as well:
Might someone not already fully adept in that element of the Catechism infer that the analogy in use here is your reading?

Earlier I also said clearly that I don't pretend to deal with the main topic of sacramental necessity. I leave that to those with the requisite knowledge, whose diligence toward the subject and whose care for the clarity of its treatment I do appreciate.

Soubirous,

Thanks for the comments, though I'm not really understanding them.

The analogous relationship between the sacraments of baptism and penance when it comes to sacramental necessity is expressed directly IMO in both the Council of Trent and Holy Office Letter excerpts I cited.


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I see an argument against my position by saying that the Catechism implies that a BoD would apply to all catechumen in such circuмstances. But I don't think it can be read that way, and think my analogy to the sacrament of penance applies.

Might someone not already fully adept in that element of the Catechism infer that the analogy in use here is your reading?

Again, not sure what you're saying there. The Catechism states:


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On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

As I said, one could read that as covering all catechumen undergoing instruction prior to their baptism. I really don't believe that to be a good reading, but it is possible. One could say that all the adults in catechesis do intend to go forward to baptism, and presume that that's the reason for their undergoing catechesis - although even then there might be some who do it for other reasons, e.g., to impress or please someone else. But even then, the ultimate end of their "impressing" or "pleasing" would be reception of baptism, so I think that they would all have the intention of completing catechesis and receiving, although some may not.

However, when it comes to "repentance for past sins," there would certainly and more clearly be levels or gradations of repentance or contrition, and that is where I think the analogy with penance - and the difference between the effects of a perfect contrition as opposed to an imperfect contrition before receipt of the sacrament matter greatly there - is particularly helpful in this regard (i.e, in the regard of the necessity of receipt of the sacrament).


Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2024, 09:34:00 AM »
The analogous relationship between the sacraments of baptism and penance when it comes to sacramental necessity is expressed directly IMO in both the Council of Trent and Holy Office Letter excerpts I cited.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent also confirms that the Council taught that for those who fall into sin after baptism, the sacrament of penance is as necessary to salvation as baptism is for those who haven't been baptized.

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“Baptism is administered but once, and cannot be repeated; penance may be administered and becomes necessary, as often as we may have sinned after baptism, according to the definition of the Fathers of Trent.  ‘For those who fall into sin after baptism,’ say they, ‘the sacrament of penance is as necessary to salvation, as is baptism for those who have not been already baptized’ (Session XIV, Chapter II).”

That St. Bonaventure text you linked to is interesting.  There's also another post on that blog that's relevant to this topic:

https://thecenturion1.wordpress.com/2023/09/08/a-necessary-dilemma-rejecting-baptism-of-desire-requires-rejecting-perfect-contrition/

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2024, 01:10:57 PM »
The Catechism of the Council of Trent also confirms that the Council taught that for those who fall into sin after baptism, the sacrament of penance is as necessary to salvation as baptism is for those who haven't been baptized.

That St. Bonaventure text you linked to is interesting.  There's also another post on that blog that's relevant to this topic:

https://thecenturion1.wordpress.com/2023/09/08/a-necessary-dilemma-rejecting-baptism-of-desire-requires-rejecting-perfect-contrition/

Joe,

Thanks. Indeed, that post makes the same point I've been making, but with a different twist.