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Author Topic: The Necessity of the Sacraments  (Read 69046 times)

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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2024, 01:21:11 PM »
https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/council-of-trent-did-not-teach-baptism-of-desire/


SESSION 7, CANON 4 ON THE SACRAMENTS IN GENERAL
Before we conclude, let’s quickly address the one other passage in all the councils of the Church that the supporters of baptism of desire point to.  Like their arguments about Sess 6, Chap. 4, their argument about this passage fails as well.
Quote
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 7, Can. 4, On the Sacraments: “If anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that people obtain the grace of justification from God without them or a desire for them, by faith alone, though all are not necessary for each individual: let him be anathema.”
Si quis dixerit, sacramenta novae Legis non esse ad salutem necessaria, sed superflua, et sine eis aut eorum voto per solam fidem homines a Deo gratiam iustificationis adipisci, licet omnia singulis necessaria non sint: an. s.
Some think that this supports the idea of baptism of desire, but it doesn’t at all.  The canon condemns the position that people obtain justification without the sacraments or the desire for them by faith alone.  That doesn’t contradict the position of Catholics such as ourselves, who reject baptism of desire.  We don’t believe that people can be justified without the sacraments or without the desire for them by faith alone.  Thus, the canon doesn’t contradict the absolute necessity of baptism at all.  The reason that it mentions without them or a desire of them is that it’s referring to justification and the sacraments in general.  Properly speaking, a person can only be saved once.  However, it’s possible for a person to be justified more than once.
For example, a person could fall into grave sin after baptism but recover that justification through perfect contrition and the desire for the Sacrament of Penance.  Since the recovery of justification can occur through perfect contrition and the desire for the Sacrament of Penance without the sacrament actually being received, this canon on the sacraments in general and justification makes room for that possibility and includes the words “a desire of them” in reference to justification.  But notice that it did not say: “if anyone says that the sacraments of the new law or the desire of them are not necessary for salvation”.  No, it simply said: “if anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation.” But it made it clear that people don’t need to receive all the sacraments to be saved.  The Sacraments in general are truly said to be necessary for salvation because you must receive at least one sacrament, namely baptism, to be saved.  So, this canon does not at all teach baptism of desire. In fact, in the profession of faith promulgated by the same Council of Trent, we find this stated:
Quote
Pope Pius IV, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “I also profess that there are truly and properly seven sacraments of the New Law instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, although all are not necessary for each individual…”
Notice that the language about the necessity of the sacraments in general here is similar to what is stated in Sess 7, Can. 4, but what don’t we find?  We don’t find any reference to “or the desire for them”.  Why?  The reason is that there is no mention of justification in this passage but only of salvation.  Since a baptized person can recover justification by perfect contrition plus the desire for penance, there are instances in which an already baptized person who has fallen into grave sin can be justified by the desire for the Sacrament of Penance without actually receiving it.  But even if that person is saved he would not be saved without the sacraments in general, having already received the Sacrament of Baptism.
Thus, since Sess 7, Can. 4 was covering justification and the sacraments in general, as well as salvation, it included “or a desire for them” in reference to justification to cover that possibility.  But in the aforementioned statement of the profession of faith, which only mentioned salvation, there is no mention of desire but only that the sacraments are necessary, with the clarification that one need not receive all the sacraments.  Thus, no one can be saved without incorporation into the sacramental system through baptism.
A DEVASTATING QUOTE FROM TRENT’S SESSION 7
This is further confirmed by what Trent says in the Foreword to Sess. 7 of the Council of Trent’s Decree on the Sacraments.
Quote
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Foreword, ex cathedra: “For the completion of the salutary doctrine of Justification… it has seemed fitting to treat of the most holy sacraments of the Church, through which all true justice either begins, or being begun is increased or being lost is restored.”
Ad consummationem salutaris de justificatione doctrinae… consentaneum visum est, de sanctissimis Ecclesiae sacramentis agere, per quae omnis vera justitia vel incipit, vel coepta augetur, vel amissa reparatur.
The Council of Trent here teaches that all true justice (sanctifying grace) either begins or is increased or is restored at the sacraments.  This means that all true justice must be at least one of the three: begun at the sacraments, increased at the sacraments, or restored at the sacraments.  But the baptism of desire theory is that some people can have a true justice (sanctifying grace) that is none of the above three!  They argue that some persons can have true justice that is: 1) not begun at the sacraments, but before; and 2) not increased at the sacraments (since the person dies before getting to the sacraments); and 3) not restored at the sacraments (for the same reason as # 2).  Thus, the “baptism of desire” theory posits a true justice which is neither begun nor increased nor restored at the sacraments.  But such an idea is contrary to the above teaching of Trent, and therefore the “justice” which they posit cannot be true justice.  This shows again that baptism of desire is not a true teaching, but a false teaching that contradicts infallible Catholic truth.


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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2024, 01:23:01 PM »
Quote from: Joe Cupertino on February 22, 2024, 09:34:00 AM

The Catechism of the Council of Trent also confirms that the Council taught that for those who fall into sin after baptism, the sacrament of penance is as necessary to salvation as baptism is for those who haven't been baptized.

That St. Bonaventure text you linked to is interesting.  There's also another post on that blog that's relevant to this topic:

https://thecenturion1.wordpress.com/2023/09/08/a-necessary-dilemma-rejecting-baptism-of-desire-requires-rejecting-perfect-contrition/
:sleep:

TRENT ON NECESSITY OF PENANCE VS. NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
Now some people point to Trent’s statement in Sess. 14, Chap. 2, where it says that the Sacrament of Penance is necessary for those who have fallen as baptism itself is for those not yet regenerated.  
Quote
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, On Penance: “This sacrament of penance, moreover, is necessary for the salvation of those who have fallen after baptism, as baptism itself is necessary for those not yet regenerated.”
They argue that since the grace of Penance can be attained by the desire for it plus perfect contrition in the absence of the Sacrament, that applies to baptism as well.  But that argument fails because in the very same decree Trent adds that people can be justified before the Sacrament of Penance is actually received by perfect contrition and the desire for the Sacrament of Penance, but Trent nowhere says the same about baptism.
Quote
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Chap. 4, On Penance: “The Council teaches, furthermore, that though it sometimes happens that this contrition is perfect because of charity and reconciles man to God, before this sacrament is actually received, this reconciliation must not be ascribed to the contrition itself without the desire of the sacrament which is included in it.”
The argument also fails because one cannot have perfect contrition until one is regenerated or born of God in baptism (1 John 4:7).
In fact, Trent teaches three different times (Sess. 6, Chap. 14; Sess. 14, Chap. 4) that the desire for the Sacrament of Penance can suffice for justification, but nowhere did it teach the same about baptism, although it could have if baptism of desire were a true doctrine.  So, taken in context Trent does not equate the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism with the necessity of the Sacrament of Penance.


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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2024, 01:31:20 PM »
Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on February 25, 2024, 01:21:11 PM

https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/council-of-trent-did-not-teach-baptism-of-desire/
Any takers? I predict not, because the fact that professions of faith that speak of salvation and not justification only do not include "...or the desire for them" completely destroys this false argument.

I also predict no one will even attempt to explain how can all justice begin at the sacraments when all admit Baptism of Man's Own Will is not a sacrament.

One more prediction, the debate on this topic will always focus on the BoDer nonsense arguments and the clear-cut unassailable proofs such as Pope St.Leo the Great's dogmatic tome to Flavian will continue to be ignored.


Pope St. Leo the Great, dogmatic letter to Flavian, Council of Chalcedon, 451:

“Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood (1 Pet. 1:2); and let him not skip over the same apostle’s words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot (1 Pet. 1:18).  Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin (1 Jn. 1:7); and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith.  Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?  It is He, Jesus Christ, who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood.  And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies.  For there are three who give testimony – Spirit and water and blood.  And the three are one.  (1 Jn. 5:4-8)  IN OTHER WORDS, THE SPIRIT OF SANCTIFICATION AND THE BLOOD OF REDEMPTION AND THE WATER OF BAPTISM.  THESE THREE ARE ONE AND REMAIN INDIVISIBLE.  NONE OF THEM IS SEPARABLE FROM ITS LINK WITH THE OTHERS.”

Pope St. Gelasius, Decretal, 495: “Also the epistle of blessed Leo the Pope to Flavian… if anyone argues concerning the text of this one even in regard to one iota, and does not receive it in all respects reverently, let him be anathema.”

https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/pope-leo-the-great-water-baptism/


Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

No need to explain anything, just receive and accept the teaching of the Magisterium.
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2024, 02:08:37 PM »
Hi, Marulus .... can't read your white font :laugh1:.  Perhaps people with better eyesight, but not I.
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2024, 02:10:15 PM »
Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on February 25, 2024, 01:31:20 PM

I also predict no one will even attempt to explain how can all justice begin at the sacraments when all admit Baptism of Man's Own Will is not a sacrament.

Yeah, that's one of the most serious problems with BoD, where it turns justification/salvation into an ex opere operantis operation and really is semi-Pelagian at least.
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