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Author Topic: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)  (Read 2264 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2023, 01:30:06 PM »
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  • I am not too familiar with Feeney, what did he get wrong per se?

    I'm saying that for those who believe he was wrong to deny BoD, he was still 100% right about EENS and the problematic V2 ecclesiology.  There's certainly a way to salvage BoD by limiting it almost to the case of the catechumen (as St. Robert Bellarmine did), where it doesn't gut Catholic ecclesiology.  But my point was that many Trads hate Father Feeney worse than Martin Luther, and the term "Feeneyite" is a stronger term of derision than "Lutheran" ... even though at best he made a mistake regarding BoD.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
    « Reply #31 on: October 17, 2023, 02:35:26 PM »
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  • I'm pretty sure those who demonize the good Father Feeney do so mainly because they believe the lies that were fed to the whole world about him some 80 years ago. The enemy hates the truth, must suppress it, slander whomever speaks it, cover it up with other issues and so on, just the same as they are doing these days.

    I mean, Trump is a crook himself, but he exposes the Left's crooks and lies all the time and look what they've done, are doing, and will continue to do to him - and there are a lot of ignorant people who believe the lying left is the good guys, and have them convinced that Trump and all Republicans or just conservatives who may or may not even like Trump, are the world's most low down lying "Maga maggots."

    So it's similar in what they are doing to Trump, they did to Fr. Feeney first. It was of course a lot worse with Fr. Feeney because of the truth he defended. Too many souls and too much depended on the crooks shutting him up, they did that by slandering him into oblivion.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
    « Reply #32 on: October 17, 2023, 02:46:35 PM »
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  • “The New Mass is a Protestant imitation of the True Mass, and anyone who says it is betraying the Catholic Faith.” Fr. Feeney

    This came from Fr. Champagne, a Sede priest who knew and spoke with Fr. Feeney. 
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
    « Reply #33 on: October 17, 2023, 02:55:42 PM »
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  • In his book called I believe After The Boston Heresy Case, Gary Potter published the text of a letter Father Feeney wrote to Pius XII. It's quite affecting. It's outrageous the way the situation was handled. It's a black mark on Pius XII, and his direction of the Church, that he didn't deal with this issue differently. That Father Feeney eventually got excommunicated and Cushing et al. escaped all censure whatsoever for bastardizing a dogma of the Church is terrible.

    Vatican II was indeed a divine chastisement.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
    « Reply #34 on: October 17, 2023, 03:01:47 PM »
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  • In his book called I believe After The Boston Heresy Case, Gary Potter published the text of a letter Father Feeney wrote to Pius XII. It's quite affecting. It's outrageous the way the situation was handled. It's a black mark on Pius XII, and his direction of the Church, that he didn't deal with this issue differently. That Father Feeney eventually got excommunicated and Cushing et al. escaped all censure whatsoever for bastardizing a dogma of the Church is terrible.

    Vatican II was indeed a divine chastisement.

    I wonder if this is the letter referenced by the Dimonds:

    Quote
    It was on September 24, 1952 that Father Feeney addressed a long, detailed letter to Pius XII.  The letter went unanswered. 

    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/pope-pius-xii-father-feeney-the-dogma/

    I'll try to find a copy online, or take a jpeg of it from the Gary Potter book. It's a very worthy docuмent, powerfully prophetic. 

     
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
    « Reply #35 on: October 17, 2023, 03:16:17 PM »
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  • Still haven't found that letter online. 

    But as to Introibo, he seems to hold to the Thomist position as enunciated by Father Muller:


    Quote
    Reply: Pope Pius IX does not teach that invincible ignorance saves, nor does he teach that the invincibly ignorant can only be saved through baptism with water. The staunchest supporter of the absolute necessity of belonging to the Church (extra Ecclesiam nulla salus) was theologian Michael Muller (1825-1899), a contemporary of Pope Pius IX. He wrote a catechism entitled, Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine. It sets forth perfectly the teaching of the Church:

    Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?

    A. Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite Mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic Faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable (invincible) ignorance.

    Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?

    A. No.

    Q. Why not?

    A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

    Q. What do you mean by this?

    A. I mean that God, in His infinite Mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the Truth of the Catholic Faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

    Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?

    A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.

    Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?

    A. Eternal damnation.  (Emphasis mine).

    As can be plainly seen, there really is no implicit faith--there is explicit faith in the internal forum known but to God. Does this in any way detract from our duty to convert everyone to the One True Church? Hardly. If anything, it should make us work harder for the salvation of souls. In the natural order, if you knew someone was poor and starving, would you bring them food or rely on God to miraculously feed them?



    https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2021/12/four-degrees-of-feeney.html

    Good for Introibo. I'm even more sorry for my spurious implication about him. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
    « Reply #36 on: October 17, 2023, 04:23:11 PM »
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  • Here's Father Feeney's letter to Pope Pius XII, dated May 28, 1949. It's printed in Gary Potter's Book, After The Boston Heresy Case, pp. 140-141. Of course, this was years before the excommunication. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Introibo - diabolical fog of stunning proportion
    « Reply #37 on: October 17, 2023, 04:41:03 PM »
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  • Still haven't found that letter online.

    But as to Introibo, he seems to hold to the Thomist position as enunciated by Father Muller:


    Good for Introibo. I'm even more sorry for my spurious implication about him.
    Unfortunately, as I said, he believes in "implicit faith" and is one of the vilest heretics who hates EENS dogma.

    Quote
    4. Explicit faith is necessary for BOD and BOB; implicit faith (invincible ignorance) will not save. (These Feeneyites reject Church teaching, especially that of Pope Pius IX).
    Quote
    I was upbraided on Twitter by a Feeneyite in category #4 above. He claimed my post on "Self-Approved Theologians" of 11/22/21 made me a "heretic" since I accept implicit BOD. When I called him a Feeneyite, he rejected the appellation. Feeneyites are all those heretics who reject in whole or in part Church dogma on BOD and BOB. Of course, when I challenged my Twitter adversary to a written debate on a neutral forum, he declined and "bravely ran away" like all Feeneyites I've ever known.
    Quote
    This post will refute the "four degrees" of Feeneyism, especially those who deny BOD is available to those in invincible ignorance and have implicit faith (category #4 above). [Please note that this post will refer to Leonard Feeney without the title "Fr." Despite being a valid priest, he forfeits his right to his clerical title when solemnly excommunicated by the pope. Hence, we speak of Martin Luther, not "Fr. Luther."

    Besides mocking Our Lord's words "if you believe not that I am He you shall die in your sins", and John 3:5, Introibo believes a whole host of lies of the most idiotic kind.

    In short, Introibo believes in evolution, the Big Bang theory, that the Earth is billions of years old, heliocentrism, the theory of relativity (that is the bending of space-time :jester:), the official 9/11 narrative, the official Sandy Hook nareative, the moon landing, and pretty much everything else "the experts" say and if you doubt these things he'll mock you like a lunatic.
    In like manner, he doesn't believe in the magisterium as the proximate rule of faith but "approved theologians" who explain the magisterium to mean the opposite of what it says.
    He also believes Fr. Feeney was possessed.

    Here are some statements from Introibo, I'm sure there's a lot more I missed.


    Quote
    In all that time, I've met Traditionalists (both in person and online) who give credence to a variety of things which I consider to be whacky ideas. They include (but are not limited to) the Earth being flat, every Jєω in the world (yes, every single one) is part of a massive conspiracy to enslave humanity, 9/11 never took place and involved no Moslems, every single school shooting in the U.S. was a hoax, and werewolves are real. I do not share any of those convictions, and I will not get involved in protracted discussions regarding them. Personally, I think they make Traditionalists look and sound foolish, and it becomes harder to win converts.

    If someone wants to believe the Earth is flat and/or the center of the universe, they can do so and also be true Catholics (although the former science teacher in me winces in intellectual pain to realize people can think that way). Hence, I will only argue the theological points, and not against the alleged "scientific proofs" of geocentrism.

    As to evolution, the formation of the body can be admitted

    Prior to the 1920s, scientists had always assumed the universe was stationary and eternal. In 1917, Einstein applied his new General Theory of Relativity to cosmology, and found that it would not permit an eternal, static model of the universe unless he fudged the equations in order to offset the gravitational effect of matter. This was the beginning of what would lead to the "Big Bang Theory," accepted by all scientists today. The standard model describes a universe which is not not eternal in the past, but which came into being a finite time ago. Not only all matter and energy, but even time and space themselves came into being at the initial cosmological singularity out of nothing or ex nihil. This is exactly the teaching of the Church!!

    Thank you for this info. I like to stay on top of such things, as advances in science can only help prove God. However, we must be careful. I know of not one reputable scientist which holds to such an opinion. I would be most interested if you could cite me the video. I'll warn you and all my readers about a movie called "The Principle" released in 2014 by V2 apologist Robert Sungenis.

    As a life-long New Yorker who was here on 9/11 as it unfolded, I can tell you that the majority of what was reported was accurate.

    You would have me deny the infallibility of the One True Church of Christ while thinking the earth is the center of the universe, and 9/11 was a conspiracy. Oh, boy.

    At the risk of sounding uncharitable, please forgive me if I decline to join you in this alternate "reality."

    All lies? All delusional? Not a chance. People are now claiming no one was killed at Newtown [Sandy Hook] in 2012; it was rigged by the government.
    Please.

    Relativity is one of the most well-tested and thoroughly solid ideas in all of science for all time. It is literally tested millions of times a day in particle accelerators. We see it in every cosmological observation, every star that explodes in the sky, every time a nuclear power plant generates even an iota of energy.

    Yes, the moon landing was faked. So were the Columbine and Newtown shootings. Elvis faked his death and works as a clerk in my local supermarket. UFOs led by Bigfoot control the media and all people (except you) through mind control techniques. Don't forget to wear your tinfoil hat before you go to sleep.

    7. Conspiracy theorists are people who disregard the manifest weight of the credible evidence to believe things that they wish to believe. That's you. Go away from where the evidence leads; the hallmark of a conspiracy theorist.


    His mind is in a truly diabolical fog.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Introibo - diabolical fog of stunning proportion
    « Reply #38 on: October 17, 2023, 05:07:20 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, as I said, he believes in "implicit faith" and is one of the vilest heretics who hates EENS dogma.

    Besides mocking Our Lord's words "if you believe not that I am He you shall die in your sins", and John 3:5, Introibo believes a whole host of lies of the most idiotic kind.

    In short, Introibo believes in evolution, the Big Bang theory, that the Earth is billions of years old, heliocentrism, the theory of relativity (that is the bending of space-time :jester:), the official 9/11 narrative, the official Sandy Hook nareative, the moon landing, and pretty much everything else "the experts" say and if you doubt these things he'll mock you like a lunatic.
    In like manner, he doesn't believe in the magisterium as the proximate rule of faith but "approved theologians" who explain the magisterium to mean the opposite of what it says.
    He also believes Fr. Feeney was possessed.

    Here are some statements from Introibo, I'm sure there's a lot more I missed.



    His mind is in a truly diabolical fog.

    I'm not interested in his position on anything else but the issue of the necessity of explicit faith, as I associated him with a group of those who deny it's necessity.

    You're quick on the trigger, and will not weigh the evidence before doing so. That's a bit of a common fault around here with many.

    You quote a heading or description at the head of the piece. In the body, the part with the substantive discussion, he refers to Fr. Muller as "set(tting) forth perfectly the teaching of the Church," and states explicitly:

    Quote
    As can be plainly seen, there really is no implicit faith--there is explicit faith in the internal forum known but to God.

    Perhaps if you reflected a bit, you'd give this explicit statement of what he believes the weight it deserves, instead of grabbing onto his introduction to waylay him. Pathetic.

    He was obviously - in light of his explicit statement - using "implicit faith" in the sense of something that is not explicit in the sense of visible, clear, and such that identifies one externally as a member of the Church. The quote above makes that rather obvious.

    But noooooo! Marilus has determined that Introibo is a heretic, and what he says is simply sifted to prove that point, or to make an argument. Truth be damned.

    As I said, pathetic.


     
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online poenitens

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    Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
    « Reply #39 on: October 17, 2023, 05:18:42 PM »
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  • If Introibo believes in BOD as explained by St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus, why is he criticizing Fr. Feeney? Is it just because of the association of feeneyism with the Dimonds?

    Fr. said that he did not know what happened with those who die with explicit faith but without water baptism, which is not in flagrant contradiction with what the doctors speculated. I think that the exact quote is in Bread of Life. The Dimonds are the ones who are saying that such persons (with explicit faith but no water baptism) definitely go to hell.
    "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" - St. Paul to the Galatians

    "Confiteor unum baptisma" - Nicene Creed

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Introibo - diabolical fog of stunning proportion
    « Reply #40 on: October 17, 2023, 05:22:12 PM »
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  • I'm not interested in his position on anything else but the issue of the necessity of explicit faith, as I associated him with a group of those who deny it's necessity.

    You're quick on the trigger, and will not weigh the evidence before doing so. That's a bit of a common fault around here with many.

    You quote a heading or description at the head of the piece. In the body, the part with the substantive discussion, he refers to Fr. Muller as "set(tting) forth perfectly the teaching of the Church," and states explicitly:

    Perhaps if you reflected a bit, you'd give this explicit statement of what he believes the weight it deserves, instead of grabbing onto his introduction to waylay him. Pathetic.

    He was obviously - in light of his explicit statement - using "implicit faith" in the sense of something that is not explicit in the sense of visible, clear, and such that identifies one externally as a member of the Church. The quote above makes that rather obvious.

    But noooooo! Marilus has determined that Introibo is a heretic, and what he says is simply sifted to prove that point, or to make an argument. Truth be damned.

    As I said, pathetic.


     
    Oh, sure, sure. Go ahead and ask him whether this statement is heretical:
    Quote
    Bishop Donald Sanborn, Sacerdotium V, p. 24: “Vatican II’s idea of the Church is heretical, since it identifies organized religions of pagans and idolaters with the Mystical Body of Christ. The truth is that in no way are pagans and idolaters, as pagans and idolaters, united to the Mystical Body of Christ. If, by some mystery of Providence and Predestination, they [pagans and idolaters] are united to the soul of the Church, and by desire to its body, it is in spite of their paganism and idolatry. It is due to an invincible ignorance of their error.”
    Or maybe you'd prefer this one:
    Quote
    Bishop Robert McKenna, “The Boston Snare,” printed in the CMRI’s Magazine The Reign of Mary, Vol. XXVI, No. 83: “The doctrine, then, of no salvation outside the Church is to be understood in the sense of knowingly outside the Church… But, they may object, if such be the sense of the dogma in question, why is the word ‘knowingly’ not part of the formula, ‘Outside the Church no salvation’? For the simple reason that the addition is unnecessary. How could anyone know of the dogma and not be knowingly outside the Church? The ‘dogma’ is not so much a doctrine intended for the instruction of Catholics, since it is but a logical consequence of the Church’s claim to be the true Church, but rather a solemn and material warning or declaration for the benefit of those outside the one ark of salvation.”
    Please do report back whether the statements contradict the many times defined Church teaching that outside the Church there is no salvation in the opinion of the individual Introibo.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The native - a tract in one act (from Fr. Feeney's The Point)
    « Reply #41 on: October 17, 2023, 05:23:54 PM »
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  • If Introibo believes in BOD as explained by St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus, why is he criticizing Fr. Feeney? Is it just because of the association of feeneyism with the Dimonds?

    Perhaps he'll tell you if you ask him. You might try contacting him. 

    I quoted what he believes, and he agrees with Father Muller, who is basically following St. Thomas's thought that explicit faith is necessary for salvation, and that necessary faith might come to someone by way an an angel or internal inspiration. Which would make it explicit faith in Christ, but not explicit to us. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Introibo - diabolical fog of stunning proportion
    « Reply #42 on: October 17, 2023, 05:24:55 PM »
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  • Oh, sure, sure. Go ahead and ask him whether this statement is heretical:Or maybe you'd prefer this one:Please do report back whether the statements contradict the many times defined Church teaching that outside the Church there is no salvation in the opinion of the individual Introibo.

    So now you're actually projecting what he might say "if," and declaring him a heretic on that basis?

    Doubly pathetic. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Introibo - diabolical fog of stunning proportion
    « Reply #43 on: October 17, 2023, 05:32:22 PM »
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  • So now you're actually projecting what he might say "if," and declaring him a heretic on that basis?

    Doubly pathetic.

    OK, mister, please explain how the fourth category of Feeneyites differs from Introibo's view and from the rest of the Feeneyite views.

    Will you please put in the mental effort necessary to see that HE LITERALLY CALLS PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN BOD FEENEYITES.

    Feenyites say: 4. Explicit faith is necessary for BOD and BOB; implicit faith (invincible ignorance) will not save. (These Feeneyites reject Church teaching, especially that of Pope Pius IX).

    I was upbraided on Twitter by a Feeneyite in category #4 above. He claimed my post on "Self-Approved Theologians" of 11/22/21 made me a "heretic" since I accept implicit BOD

    What part don't you understand?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Introibo - diabolical fog of stunning proportion
    « Reply #44 on: October 17, 2023, 05:44:26 PM »
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  • OK, mister, please explain how the fourth category of Feeneyites differs from Introibo's view and from the rest of the Feeneyite views.

    Will you please put in the mental effort necessary to see that HE LITERALLY CALLS PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN BOD FEENEYITES.

    Feenyites say: 4. Explicit faith is necessary for BOD and BOB; implicit faith (invincible ignorance) will not save. (These Feeneyites reject Church teaching, especially that of Pope Pius IX).

    I was upbraided on Twitter by a Feeneyite in category #4 above. He claimed my post on "Self-Approved Theologians" of 11/22/21 made me a "heretic" since I accept implicit BOD

    What part don't you understand?

    Seriously? I explained the sense of "implicit" that he used initially: it was used in a sense to counter the Feeneyist position he was attacking, which he understands as requiring "explicit faith" in the sense of openly confessed, evidenced by baptism - faith that is explicit to us. He rejects that faith must be explicit in that sense; it can be simply the Catholic faith internally believed, and "expressed" between the individual and God. In the latter sense, the faith is explicit as an expressed Catholic belief and faith.

    You don't want to read it, but here it is again:

    Quote
    As can be plainly seen, there really is no implicit faith--there is explicit faith in the internal forum known but to God.

    There it is again. I highlighted a different part this time for you, which should help.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.