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Author Topic: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"  (Read 1285 times)

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Offline trad123

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The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
« on: September 19, 2023, 12:36:31 PM »
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  • Does the term laver of regeneration the Sacrament of Baptism actually conferred ?

    To illustrate this, compare the following


    http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm




    Quote
    And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.




    Quote
    And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the sacrament of baptism actually conferred, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.




    The 1917 or Pio-Benedictine Code of Canon Law: in English Translation, published by Ignatius Press,

    Third Book On Things, CANONS 726–1551, FIRST PART—On Sacraments, Title 1:




    Quote
    Canon 737

    § 1. Baptism, the gateway and foundation of the Sacraments, actually or at least in desire is necessary for all for salvation and is not validly conferred except by washing with true and natural water along with the prescribed formula of words.



    Now, compared to the 1917 code, here's the 1983 Code of Cannon Law:


    https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/docuмents/cic_lib4-cann834-878_en.html#TITLE_I.



    Quote
    Can. 849 Baptism, the gateway to the sacraments and necessary for salvation by actual reception or at least by desire, is validly conferred only by a washing of true water with the proper form of words. Through baptism men and women are freed from sin, are reborn as children of God, and, configured to Christ by an indelible character, are incorporated into the Church.




    Mystici Corporis, The Mystical Body of Christ, the Church, Pope Pius XII - 1943


    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm



    Quote
    22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed


    Compare the Latin


    https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/la/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html



    Quote
    In Ecclesiae autem membris reapse ii soli annumerandi sunt, qui regenerationis lavacrum receperunt veramque fidem profitentur, neque a Corporis compage semet ipsos misere separarunt, vel ob gravissima admissa a legitima auctoritate seiuncti sunt.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #1 on: September 19, 2023, 12:47:38 PM »
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  • To illustrate this another way.

    A or B does not mean that if there is only A it's forced baptism

    A or B means that if there is only A it's actual baptism


    Laver of regeneration alone does not equal forced baptism

    Forced baptism is not an actual baptism, it is not a sacrament, it is invalid.

    Laver of regeneration is a sacrament.

    Laver of regeneration is actual baptism.


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #3 on: September 20, 2023, 03:12:07 PM »
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  • The 5 conditions needed for the laver of regeneration

    1. The one administering the sacrament
    2. The one receiving the sacrament
    3. The words
    4. The water
    5. The intention of both the one administering and the one receiving


    These conditions are implicit in the term laver of regeneration.

    Take away even one condition and there is no laver of regeneration. 



    Quote
    "without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof"



    is the same as



    Quote
    "without the conditions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or the desire thereof"


    The intention required on behalf of the one administering and the one receiving is already implicit in the term laver of regeneration.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #4 on: September 20, 2023, 03:26:44 PM »
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  • Some old posts.



    If someone claims that Trent teaches ONE OR THE OTHER, then he is in error, given that Trent actually condemns those that say that water alone (without the will or desire) is sufficient to justify.


    You in fact claim that water alone without the will or desire is sufficient to justify, which was condemned as heresy in the canons.


    When speaking of adults (because the referenced canon is concerning the baptism of the impious), if either the water or desire separate from each other is enough to save, making desire alone enough to save, then necessarily water alone saves despite the will.




    This is clear that the fundamental issue is the understanding of what exactly is "laver of regeneration"

    Is it merely "water alone" or the "baptismal washing"

    Or rather, is it the "sacrament of baptism" ?




    Quote
    And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.


    Quote
    And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the baptismal water, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.


    Quote
    And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the sacrament of baptism, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #5 on: September 20, 2023, 03:37:58 PM »
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  • If someone claims that Trent teaches ONE OR THE OTHER, then he is in error, given that Trent actually condemns those that say that water alone (without the will or desire) is sufficient to justify.

    You in fact claim that water alone without the will or desire is sufficient to justify, which was condemned as heresy in the canons.

    When speaking of adults (because the referenced canon is concerning the baptism of the impious), if either the water or desire separate from each other is enough to save, making desire alone enough to save, then necessarily water alone saves despite the will.




    I know these quotes are from 2014, but they get to the heart of the issue.

    I dare say that each one of these quotes is a straw man fallacy.

    The position is not, "the water OR the desire thereof"

    The position is, "the sacrament of baptism OR the desire thereof"
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #6 on: September 20, 2023, 05:06:14 PM »
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  • "Laver of Regeneration" refers to the sacramental act provided by the Church, i.e. matter/form, i.e. water + prayers of the Church.  The "desire/disposition" of the person involved is separate which is why Trent spent so much time on explaining the manner of preparation for adults. 



    This quote is from another thread.

    No "sacramental act" takes place without the intention of the one administering the sacrament of baptism, nor without the one receiving.

    A forced baptism cannot be referred to as an actual baptism, as it is invalid.



    Article 7. Whether the intention of receiving the sacrament of Baptism is required on the part of the one baptized?

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article7


    Quote
    Reply to Objection 2. If an adult lack the intention of receiving the sacrament, he must be rebaptized. But if there be doubt about this, the form to be used should be: "If thou art not baptized, I baptize thee."






    The belief/disposition of the individual is beyond the Church's/God's control so it can't be implicit in the sacrament.



    It absolutely can be.

    A or B

    Take away B and leave A remaining and it is still actual baptism.

    You would venture to say A alone is forced baptism, but can forced baptism be equal with the laver of regeneration?

    In other words, can forced baptism be equal with actual baptism?






    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #7 on: September 20, 2023, 05:17:35 PM »
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  • let's say it's a forced Baptism or a feigned conversion without any real intention to receive the Sacrament, while the Sacrament would be valid, no justification would take place.



    Denied.

    Laver of regeneration is actual baptism, while forced baptism is invalid and not a baptism at all.




    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article7


    Quote
    Reply to Objection 2. If an adult lack the intention of receiving the sacrament, he must be rebaptized. But if there be doubt about this, the form to be used should be: "If thou art not baptized, I baptize thee."

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #8 on: September 20, 2023, 05:25:26 PM »
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  • Trent was saying, no, a forced baptism doesn't work.  If a person receives a valid baptism formula, but has no desire, then the sacrament is invalid.


    A without B cannot be referred to as a forced baptism, because "forced baptism" and "laver of regeneration" can never be equivalent.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #9 on: September 20, 2023, 05:59:07 PM »
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  • Article 1. Whether confession is necessary for salvation?

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5006.htm#article1



    Quote
    I answer that, Christ's Passion, without whose power, neither original nor actual sin is remitted, produces its effect in us through the reception of the sacraments which derive their efficacy from it. Wherefore for the remission of both actual and original sin, a sacrament of the Church is necessary, received either actually, or at least in desire, when a man fails to receive the sacrament actually, through an unavoidable obstacle, and not through contempt. Consequently those sacraments which are ordained as remedies for sin which is incompatible with salvation, are necessary for salvation: and so just as Baptism, whereby original sin is blotted out, is necessary for salvation, so also is the sacrament of Penance. And just as a man through asking to be baptized, submits to the ministers of the Church, to whom the dispensation of that sacrament belongs, even so, by confessing his sin, a man submits to a minister of the Church, that, through the sacrament of Penance dispensed by him, he may receive the pardon of his sins: nor can the minister apply a fitting remedy, unless he be acquainted with the sin, which knowledge he acquires through the penitent's confession. Wherefore confession is necessary for the salvation of a man who has fallen into a mortal actual sin.




    The 1917 or Pio-Benedictine Code of Canon Law: in English Translation, published by Ignatius Press,

    Third Book On Things, CANONS 726–1551, FIRST PART—On Sacraments, Title 1:


    Quote
    Canon 737

    § 1. Baptism, the gateway and foundation of the Sacraments, actually or at least in desire is necessary for all for salvation and is not validly conferred except by washing with true and natural water along with the prescribed formula of words.





    Again, compare the following:


      

    Quote
    And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.



    Quote
    And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without actual baptism, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.







    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #10 on: September 20, 2023, 06:45:56 PM »
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  • Perhaps the truth is between two extremes.

    On one side is the denial of the Athanasian Creed, and the teaching of the popes, as if there were souls who could possibly be saved without turning to the Catholic faith, remaining in their ignorance, as if God would not send them a preacher or even an internal inspiration, if necessary, to teach them the truths of the Catholic faith.

    On the other side is a condemnation of the positions held by St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus, and St. Bellarmine, as if it were not lawful to hold positions held by the doctors of the Church, positions which have yet to be condemned by the Church.

    The likes of Bishop Fellay and Bishop Sanborn ought to be bombarded with the teaching of St. Thomas, the Athanasian Creed, and that of the popes.





    St. Thomas Aquinas

    Quaestiones disputatae de veritate

    Question Fourteen: Faith

    ARTICLE XI: In the eleventh article we ask: Is it necessary to believe explicitly?

    http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/g3i.htm




    Quote
    1. We should not posit any proposition from which an untenable conclusion follows. But, if we claim that explicit belief is necessary for salvation, an untenable conclusion follows. For it is possible for someone to be brought up in the forest or among wolves, and such a one cannot have explicit knowledge of any matter of faith. Thus, there will be a man who will inevitably be damned. But this is untenable. Hence, explicit belief in something does not seem necessary.

    Answers to Difficulties

    1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).




    The Athanasian Creed


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm


    Quote
    Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.






    Pius IX - 1849
    Nostis Et Nobiscuм
    On the Church in the Pontifical States

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9nostis.htm


    Quote
    10. In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.




    Mirari Vos
    On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism
    Gregory XVI - 1832


    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm


    Quote
    13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

    Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.

    They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”






    Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

    Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm


    Quote
    2. Therefore, guided by the example of Our predecessors, We are grieved to hear reports from your dioceses which indicate that some of the people committed to your care freely encourage mixed marriages. Furthermore, they are promoting opinions contrary to the Catholic faith:

    [. . .]

    Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.




    Pius IX

    On Promotion of False Doctrines, 1863

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm



    Quote
    7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.


    19.

    (. . .)

    Let us pray that the errant be flooded with the light of his divine grace, may turn back from the path of error into the way of truth and justice and, experiencing the worthy fruit of repentance, may possess perpetual love and fear of his holy name.





    Leo XIII

    On Mission Societies, 1880

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm


    Quote
    6.

    [ . . . ]

    Do men like these pour forth their prayers to God that in His mercy he may bring to the Divine light of the Gospel by His victorious grace the people sitting in the darkness?





    Pius IX

    Allocution to the cardinals on the Consistory of the 17th of December, 1847:

    The life of Pope Pius IX and the great events in the history of the Church during his pontificate by John Gilmary Shea, published 1877, pgs. 97 - 103

    https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfPopePiusIX1877



    Quote
    It is assuredly not unknown to you, venerable brethren, that in our times many of the enemies of the Catholic faith especially direct their efforts toward placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or of confounding it therewith, and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions.


    But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. [. . .] as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life." We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.





    Pope Pius XI - 1928
    Mortalium Animos
    On Religious Unity


    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius11/p11morta.htm


    Quote
    13.

    [ . . . ]

    We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity.







    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #11 on: September 21, 2023, 04:19:46 AM »
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  • Trent could have simply said "justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration" and stopped right there because after saying that, no matter what else they could have said, no matter what other conditions one can imagine, the thing they communicated clearly is that there can be no justification without the sacrament. 

    But because among the heresies of the day was the heresy of "salvation through faith alone," it is for this reason that they included "or the desire thereof" and "as it is written..." so as to explicitly condemn the idea that justification can be effected through faith alone, or by any other means except the sacrament exclusively. This remains true even if Trent would have said "or without the desire thereof" instead of "or the desire thereof."

    If a BOD / BOB is anything, it's salvation through faith alone.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #12 on: September 24, 2023, 09:21:07 PM »
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  • Trent could have simply said "justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration" and stopped right there because after saying that, no matter what else they could have said, no matter what other conditions one can imagine, the thing they communicated clearly is that there can be no justification without the sacrament. 

    But because among the heresies of the day was the heresy of "salvation through faith alone," it is for this reason that they included "or the desire thereof" and "as it is written..." so as to explicitly condemn the idea that justification can be effected through faith alone, or by any other means except the sacrament exclusively. This remains true even if Trent would have said "or without the desire thereof" instead of "or the desire thereof."

    If a BOD / BOB is anything, it's salvation through faith alone.
    Absolutely.
     
    "laver of regeneration" is Trent's way of expressing the material ritual of baptism alone, less the will to receive, so that the whole passage becomes a loud and clear declaration that form, matter, and intent are all necessary for the sacrament. It's Catholic 101.

    The Council uses the term baptism dozens of times, like when it states that the only remedy for original sin the sacrament of baptism in the form of the Catholic Church, or when they anathamatize all who deny the necessity of the sacrament of baptism, or when they claim that baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation, or when they declare that true and natural water is necessary for the sacrament of baptism so now they choose to introduce ambiguity by using different verbiage? No, that's illogical.

    I hope I've helped,
    JoeZ
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Online AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #13 on: December 27, 2023, 08:16:30 AM »
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  • Food for thought.
    Quote
    5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;

     6- Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour  [Titus 3:5-6]
    From Haydock
    Quote
    Ver. 5. Not by the works, &c. S. Paul in this verse alludes to the sacrament of baptism. This text is brought by divines to prove that baptism, like every other sacrament, produces its effect by its own power, (or, as it is termed in the schools, ex opere operato) independently of any disposition on the part of the receiver. We are saved, says the apostle, not by the works of justice, or any good works we have performed, but our salvation must be attributed solely to the mercy of our Saviour, God, manifested to us by the washing itself of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.By the laver of regeneration, &c.[2] That is, baptism, by which we are born anew the adoptive children of God, by the grace of the Holy Ghost, whom he hath poured, &c. Wi.

    Ver. 6. All presumption of human merits, which have not the grace of Jesus Christ for their principle, is here completely confounded; and the whole glory of our salvation is justly attributed to the mercy of God, through Jesus Christ. A new birth, new creature, new spirit. The effusion of the water upon the body in baptism, is a figure of the salutary effusion of the holy Spirit in the soul to renew it, and to make it a child of God.
    From AN EXPOSITION OF THE
    EPISTLES OF SAINT PAUL AND
    OF THE CATHOLIC EPISTLES:
    VOLUMES 1 & 2

    THE MOST REV. JOHN MACEVILLY D.D.
    Quote
    5. It was not in consideration of our just works that he saved us; for, before his grace there were no good works, or “works of justice,” entitled to a reward; but it was out of his purely gratuitous mercy, he “saved us,” i.e., bestowed on us justification, which places us in the way of finally arriving at perfect eternal salvation, and is itself initial salvation. The means by which he has bestowed on us this justification is through the waters of baptism externally poured on us, and by the grace of the Holy Ghost, which is attached to the rite of baptism, interiorly giving us a new birth, a new spiritual essence, making us sons of God, perfectly renewing us, so that we become invested with the virtues of wisdom, faith, &c., opposed to the former vices to which we were slaves. The external instrumental cause of this renovation is baptism; the efficient invisible cause, which the external operates, is, the grace of the Holy Ghost. This passage manifestly shows that justification does not consist in the mere imputation of the justice of Christ; but that it is the inherent principle of this new life, so long as it perseveres.

    6. “Whom,” i.e., the Holy Ghost, “he hath poured forth upon us,” i.e., God the Father (verse 4) hath poured forth upon us abundantly, “through Jesus Christ our Saviour,” in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation, which, immediately after baptism, was given by the imposition of hands. The entire Trinity is referred to in this verse, distinctly contributing by an operation peculiar to each person to our new spiritual existence. The Eternal Father, the Principle of the Divinity itself, is the Father of the baptized, and the Principle of his divine existence; the Eternal Son is, with the Father, the Principle of the effusion of the Holy Ghost; and the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of the Father and Son, becomes the spirit of the baptized, his heart and soul, his supernatural and divine life.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The meaning of the term "laver of regeneration"
    « Reply #14 on: December 27, 2023, 09:42:11 AM »
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  • The 5 conditions needed for the laver of regeneration

    1. The one administering the sacrament
    2. The one receiving the sacrament
    3. The words
    4. The water
    5. The intention of both the one administering and the one receiving


    These conditions are implicit in the term laver of regeneration.

    Take away even one condition and there is no laver of regeneration.

    If one has 1-4 and 5a, then the Sacrament is validly administered, but without 5b (intention and proper disposition of the recipient) there's no justification from the Sacrament.  If the one receiving the Sacrament is not properly disposed, this does not mean that Sacrament would have to be repeated, but that the individual would not enter a state of justification, which is what Trent is dealing with here, justification by the Sacrament of Baptism.

    That is one more reason to understand Trent's teaching as meaning that both the laver and the votum are required for justification via the Sacrament.

    Our Lord taught that water AND the Holy Ghost are required for regeneration, and this is confirmed by the quote from Titus 3:5 above:
    Quote
    Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, AND renovation of the Holy Ghost;

    So IMO laver refers to the valid administration of the Sacrament, whereas the renovation by the Holy Ghost refers to justification by the Sacrament.

    Thus, if you read Trent as claiming either...or for laver or else the votum, you'd be saying that the laver can regenerate without the votum, which is wrong and actually contradicts an anathema from Trent.