In several occasions the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church has positively declared that no one has the power to innovate anything whatsoever regarding the substance of the Sacraments (substance meaning matter (in this case, natural WATER, and form (words, as expressed in John 3:5).

Pope ST Pius X: "It is well known that the Church there belongs no right whatsoever to innovate anything touching the substance of the Sacraments". Thus even the Church Herself has no power or authority to alter the words or matter in the form of the Sacrament of Baptism.  

Pope Pius XII: " As the Council of Trent teaches the seven sacraments  of the New Law have all been instituted by Jesus Christ, Our Lord, and the Church has no power over the "substance of the sacraments".

In several occasions the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church has positively declared that no one has the power to innovate anything whatsoever regarding the substance of the Sacraments (substance meaning matter (in this case, natural WATER, and form (words, as expressed in John 3:5).

Pope ST Pius X: "It is well known that the Church there belongs no right whatsoever to innovate anything touching the substance of the Sacraments". Thus even the Church Herself has no power or authority to alter the words or matter in the form of the Sacrament of Baptism.  

Pope Pius XII: " As the Council of Trent teaches the seven sacraments  of the New Law have all been instituted by Jesus Christ, Our Lord, and the Church has no power over the "substance of the sacraments".

Yes.  This is in regards to sacraments.  BOB/D are not a sacrament and they do not change the sacrament of Baptism.  It is what allows God to avoid being an arbitrary tyrant damning to eternal torture the innocent.  And AGAIN it is not something that saves those guilty of mortal sin or ignorance.  Neither does it save those who merely wish to belong to the Church.  

Quote from: Ambrose

I am not seeking an argument with you, I am trying to convince you to reject heresy.  Do you trust Ladislaus' opinion on Trent over St. Alphonus and other theologians who all say that Trent taught Baptism of Desire?

A Catholic is required to believe the Faith whole and entire.  A Catholic is not allowed to reject even one point.  This is why I am telling you this, i care enough about your soul to warn you to avoid heresy.

From all I have read and seen I believe my position is correct because to accept baptism of Desire I would have to believe in contradictions and believe that the Church erred when infallibly defining dogma. The Church declared infallibly that baptism is necessary for salvation and you are telling me that to believe that is to be in heresy. The Church declared infallibly that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and again you are telling me that to believe that is to be in heresy.

 :applause:

No one who is aware of the Church's necessity of baptism, but is guilty of refusing to get baptized will be saved.

Of course if they are not aware, through no fault of their own, they are not damned for that reason.  This is because God is not an arbitrary tyrant that damns the innocent.

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ambrose

Stubborn,

Who approves the catechisms of the Church?  Who commissions the theologians to explain the truth of the Faith and approves their writings?  

You skirt the issue since you reject the direct magisterial teachings on the necessity of the sacraments.

The only question you need to answer is: do you believe the sacraments are necessary unto salvation and that without them man cannot be justified? (the answers are below)

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

As I said to LoT a few posts ago in this thread, I have proven that like him, you do not believe what the Church teaches because you consistently reject the above infallible teaching of the Church.

I believe every word of the Canon, just not your perverse interpretation of it.

Like SJB, you still do not answer the question for the simple reason that you reject the teaching of the Church.
Ambrose, this demonstrates that you do not at all believe what the Church teaches. Do you realize that?

Quote from: Ambrose

I am not seeking an argument with you, I am trying to convince you to reject heresy.  Do you trust Ladislaus' opinion on Trent over St. Alphonus and other theologians who all say that Trent taught Baptism of Desire?

A Catholic is required to believe the Faith whole and entire.  A Catholic is not allowed to reject even one point.  This is why I am telling you this, i care enough about your soul to warn you to avoid heresy.

From all I have read and seen I believe my position is correct because to accept baptism of Desire I would have to believe in contradictions and believe that the Church erred when infallibly defining dogma. The Church declared infallibly that baptism is necessary for salvation and you are telling me that to believe that is to be in heresy. The Church declared infallibly that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and again you are telling me that to believe that is to be in heresy.

 :applause:

 :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ambrose

Stubborn,

Who approves the catechisms of the Church?  Who commissions the theologians to explain the truth of the Faith and approves their writings?  

You skirt the issue since you reject the direct magisterial teachings on the necessity of the sacraments.

The only question you need to answer is: do you believe the sacraments are necessary unto salvation and that without them man cannot be justified? (the answers are below)

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

As I said to LoT a few posts ago in this thread, I have proven that like him, you do not believe what the Church teaches because you consistently reject the above infallible teaching of the Church.

I believe every word of the Canon, just not your perverse interpretation of it.

Like SJB, you still do not answer the question for the simple reason that you reject the teaching of the Church.
Ambrose, this demonstrates that you do not at all believe what the Church teaches. Do you realize that?

What does it matter what I say to you?  Even if I could convince you how far you have gone, it still doesn't matter.

What does matter is not that you have to hear me, I am no one.  You must hear the Church, and that is what you are rejecting.

If you deny Baptism of Desire, it is a heresy.  Do you really think your theorizing is worth seriously risking your salvation.  

As I have said, and will keep saying, I hope that God will have mercy on you, and that your ignorance will excuse you.  I truly do not want you to go to Hell over this.  

So many Catholics since the beginning of the Church have fallen for the sophistries of the heretics.  This is another sad case of that.  

Every heretic that is successful in tricking Catholics out of the Church uses plausible arguments based on Scriptures and the Fathers.  Those leading the charge with this 20th century heresy are doing he same, privately interpreting Scripture and twisting the Fathers out of context to play on ignorant Catholics.

The saddest thing I find on this forum of almost 2000, is that so few care enough about the purity of sacred doctrine to stand up to this insidious heresy that is infecting Catholics everywhere.  Everyone sits on the sidelines and says nothing as heresy is professed publicly, and Catholics are led to deny their Faith.

SBC was once a local insulated sect, and no one listened to them.  All Catholics knew better, they knew their catechism.  Now with the internet, and with the Dimond mass media agenda, this is now a heresy out of control with no legitimate pastors in sight to battle against it.  Other than the modernists, this heresy is the next greatest threat to Catholics in our time.

Quote from: Trent

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Do you believe the above is an infallible teaching of Holy Mother the Church - the the Church regards such a teaching as coming directly from the mouth of God?

If so, then you are bound to accept what God says without exception.

If so and you do not accept what God says because you think it does not mean what it says because nobody else understands it that way then, you are a fool who chooses to listen to man rather than God.

Simple as that.

Yes, I absolutely believe the Canon, just not your spin on the Canon.  The Canon means what it says, but you do not understand what it means.  

As I said before, find any authority for the last 500 years that supports your bizarre interpretation of Trent.  Don't you find it strange that you can't do that?  

All authorities on Trent all read exactly what I read.  Trent taught Baptism of Desire.