This quote below comes from a Heroin BODer, a Heroin BODer is a person who believes that anyone can be saved in any false religion, even if they have no explcit desire to be Catholic, or explicit desire to be baptized, nor belief in Christ and the Trinity. Is this the "feelings oriented" reason, the reason why they defend their wacked out liberal counterfeit Heroin BOD? (WARNING : We are not discussing here baptism of desire of the catechumen, nor baptism of blood, nor any BOD which requires a desire to be a Catholic and belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. Be forewarned anyone that posts here in favor of BOD is talking strictly about Heroin BOD.)

The horrifying heresy of Feeneyism which turns God into an arbitrary tyrant and damns the innocent to an eternity of torments scared many good willed Catholics into embracing the opposite heresy of everyone is saved.

on another thread I asked a CI poster:

Dear Andysloan,

Which teaching do you think is dangerous #1 or #2:

1) to believe that anyone in any false religion can be saved even if the have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or to be baptized, nor explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity. (=Heroin BOD of Amdro, Lover of Truth, SJB)


2)

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St. Augustine, 391: “When we shall have come into His [God’s] sight, we shall behold the equity of God’s justice. Then no one will say:… ‘Why was this man led by God’s direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster, and was not baptized?’ Look for rewards, and you will find nothing except punishments.”

St. Augustine: “However much progress the catechumen should make, he still carries the load of his iniquity: nor is it removed from him unless he comes to Baptism.”

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘ they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them [/u]which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)




St. Ambrose, De mysteriis, 390-391 A.D.:

“You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element without any sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5] Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.”

St. Ambrose, The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.:
“The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed he must circuмcise himself from his sins so that he can be saved;...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the Sacrament of Baptism.”



St. Ambrose, The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.:
“Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ No one excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.”


St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And well should the pagan lament, who not knowing God, dying goes straight to punishment. Well should the Jew mourn, who not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition.”

 

St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And plainly must we grieve for our own catechumens, should they, either through their own unbelief or through their own neglect, depart this life without the saving grace of baptism.”



St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3:
“For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”



St. John Chrysostom, Homily III. On Phil. 1:1-20:
“Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, ‘Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.”



St. John Chrysostom, Homily XXV: “Hear, ye as many as are unilluminated, shudder, groan, fearful is the threat, fearful is the sentence. ‘It is not possible,’ He [Christ] saith, ‘for one not born of water and the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of heaven’; because he wears the raiment of death, of cursing, of perdition, he hath not yet received his Lord’s token, he is a stranger and an alien, he hath not the royal watchword. ‘Except,’ He saith, ‘a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven.”

The horrifying heresy of Feeneyism which turns God into an arbitrary tyrant and damns the innocent to an eternity of torments scared many good willed Catholics into embracing the opposite heresy of everyone is saved.

Is that the reason why Heroin BODers are so rabidly against people who believe the Gospel message of ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ is to be taken absolutely, literally, as it is written?

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The horrifying heresy of Feeneyism which turns God into an arbitrary tyrant and damns the innocent to an eternity of torments scared many good willed Catholics into embracing the opposite heresy of everyone is saved.

Is that the reason why Heroin BODers are so rabidly against people who believe the Gospel message of ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ is to be taken absolutely, literally, as it is written?

If so, then what about all of these scriptural passages, are they also  "horrifying , turning God into an arbitrary tyrant and damns the innocent to an eternity of torments"?

 
These are two examples of servants of God who are rejected. Notice that they all did work, for example the foolish virgins did go to buy oil, and the one talent servant did bury the talent, however, that was not enough!

Is this also "horrifying , turning God into an arbitrary tyrant and damns the innocent to an eternity of torments"?
                

The foolish virgins
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be like to ten virgins, who taking their lamps went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride. 2  And five of them were foolish and five wise. 3  But the five foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them. 4  But the wise took oil in their vessels with the lamps.  5  And the bridegroom tarrying, they all slumbered and slept. 6  And at midnight there was a cry made: Behold the bridegroom cometh. Go ye forth to meet him.  7  Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8  And the foolish said to the wise: Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out. 9  The wise answered, saying: Lest perhaps there be not enough for us and for you, go ye rather to them that sell and buy for yourselves. 10  Now whilst they went to buy the bridegroom came: and they that were ready
went in with him to the marriage. And the door was shut. 11  But at last came also the other virgins, saying: Lord, Lord, open to us. 12  But he answering said: Amen I say to you, I know you not.
13  Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour.
             
            The one talent servant
14  For even as a man going into a far country called his servants and delivered to them his goods; 15  And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey. 16  And he that had received the five talents went his way and traded with the same and gained other five. 17  And in like manner he that had received the two gained other two. 18  But he that had received the one. going his way, digged into the earth and hid his lord's money. 19  But after a long time the lord of those servants came and reckoned with them. 20  And he that had received the five talents coming brought other five talents, saying: Lord, thou didst deliver to me five talents. Behold I have gained other five over and above. 21  His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things. Enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22  And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me. Behold I have gained other two. 23  His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things. Enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24  But he that had received the one talent came said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown and gatherest where thou hast not strewed. 25  And being afraid, I went and hid thy talent in the earth. Behold here thou hast that which is thine. 26  And his, lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not and gather where I have not strewed. 27  Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers: and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28  Take ye away therefore the talent from him and give it him that hath ten talents. 29  For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30  And the unprofitable servant, cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There,
shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
            The parable of the marriage feast.
 2  The kingdom of heaven is likened to a king who made a marriage for his son. 3  And he sent his servants to call them that were invited to the marriage: and they would not come. .....8  Then he saith to his servants: The marriage indeed is ready; but they that were invited were not worthy. 9  Go ye therefore into the highways; and as many as you shall find, call to the marriage. 10  And his servants going forth into the ways, gathered together all that they found, both bad and good: and the marriage was filled with guests.
11  And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment.
12  And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having on a wedding garment? But he was silent. 13  Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into
the exterior darkness. There, shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  14  For many are called, but few are chosen.
 

 

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/13Jun/jun3ftt.htm

No Salvation Outside the Church
 
"Tough luck, dude, if you were not baptized with water!"  

 

The title says it all "Tough luck, dude, if you were not baptized with water!"  

The Heroin BODer is a determinist, he believes that God has no control over the events in our lives. Therefore, they see the clear dogmas on EENS and the sacrament of baptism, and they say it is uncharitable to "interpret" them as they are written, that people who believe thus are saying ""Tough luck, dude, if you were not baptized with water!"  

That is the bottom line, the Heroin BODer is a determinist, being determinists they believe that:

- someone is born by pure chance in a place far away.
Answer: No one is born by chance in a place other than EXACTLY where God's providence put them.

- they believe that they saved themselves by learning the faith, but that their neighbor did not have the same teachers/opportunity.
Answer - The Heroin BODer did practically NOTHING to get their "knowledge", it ALL came from God's Grace. Even their accepting God's Grace came from God. When they go to their final judgement, they will then know that all  they did was maybe lean 1/10 of 1 degree toward God, and He did the rest. God provides the same to all persons. But the Heroin BODer does not believe that. They believe that there are people who by chance (determinist) may be lost.

- the Heroin BODer, as a determinist, believes that the Holy Ghost would make all the clear dogmatic decrees on EENS and the Sacrament of Baptism, and NEVER ONCE teaching any form of baptism of desire infallibly, while at the same time EVERY SINGLE clear dogmatic decree does not mean what they say. In other words, they believe that God from before he created the world, thought of this "system" of teaching infallible something which does  not mean what it says. AFTERALL, the Heroin BODer believes that  someone can be saved who has no belief in Christ and the Trinity, nor has any explicit desire to be baptized, or to be a Catholic. Only a determinist could come up with such a "god", a god who has no control over the events  of life, a god who's grace is useless.


see see http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=29140&f=9&min=0&num=5

"Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]


In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation;along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul.


The idea of salvation outside the Church is opposed to the Doctrine of Predestination. This Doctrine means that from all eternity God has known who were His own. It is for the salvation of these, His Elect, that Providence has directed, does direct, and will always direct, the affairs of men and the events of history. Nothing, absolutely nothing, that happens, has not been taken into account by the infinite God, and woven into that tapestry in which is written the history of the salvation of His saints. Central in this providential overlordship is the Church itself, which is the sacred implement which God devised for the rescuing of His beloved ones from the damnation decreed for those who would not. (Mt. 23:37).

The Doctrine of Divine Election means that only certain individuals will be saved.  They will be saved primarily because, in the inscrutable omniscience of God, only certain individuals out of all the human family will respond to the grace of salvation. In essence, this doctrine refers to what in terms of human understanding and vision, is before and after, the past, the present, and the future, but what in God is certain knowledge and unpreventable fact, divine action and human response.

Calvin and others have made the mistake of believing that these words mean that predestination excludes human choice and dispenses from true virtue. Catholic doctrine explains simply that the foreknowledge of God precedes the giving of grace. It means, further, that, since without grace there can be no merit, and without merit no salvation, those who will be saved must be foreknown as saved by God, if they are to receive the graces necessary for salvation.

Those who say there is salvation outside the Church (no matter how they say it) do not comprehend that those who are in the Church have been brought into it by the Father, through Christ the Savior, in fulfillment of His eternal design to save them. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children. Nothing prevents His using the skies for his billboard, and the clouds for lettering, or the rolling thunder for the proclamation of His word. (Indeed, for believers, He does just this: "The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands." I Ps. 18: 11. But for atheists the heavens have no message at all.) If poverty were the reason some do not believe, he could load them down with diamonds; if youth were the reason, He could make sure they grew to a hoary old age. If it were merely the want of information, put a library on their doorstep, or a dozen missionaries in their front room. Were it for a want of brains, he could give every man an I.Q. of three hundred: it would cost Him nothing.

The idea that someone died before he was able to receive Baptism, suggests that God was unable to control events, so as to give the person time to enter the Church. If time made any difference, God could and would keep any person on earth a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand years.

Thus, what is the meaning of this election? That from all eternity God has ordered the events of history, so that His Elect might have the grace of salvation. And how do they know of this election? By the fact that they are in the Church, through no deservingness of their own? They know of no reason why God should bestow this grace, the knowledge of the truth, and the willingness and power to believe it, upon them, while others, who seem more worthy, go without it. As regards His Elect, not only has God determined to bestow necessary grace, but also, all His actions in the world must be seen as part of His salvific plan. In a word, nothing that He does is unrelated to the salvation of His Beloved Sheep. Human history, apart from the glory of Holy Church, and the salvation of the Elect, and the punishment of the wicked, has little importance for almighty God. Yet, all these purposes are only a part of the manifestation of His glory.

Those who speak of it have the problem of reconciling the mystery of Predestination with the idea of "baptism of desire." From all eternity, almighty God has known the fate of every soul. In His Providence, He has arranged for the entrance into the Church of certain millions of persons, and has seen to it that they receive the grace of faith, the Sacrament of Baptism, the grace of repentance, the forgiveness of their sins, and all the other requisites of salvation. According to The Attenuators, in the case of "non Catholic saints," and of those who died before they might receive Baptism, God was simply unable to see to these necessaries. Untoward and unforeseen circuмstances arose which prevented His providing these other millions with the means of salvation. Theirs is a story of supreme irony, that although the God of omniscience and omnipotence mastered the history of all nations and the course of every life, angelic and human, in the case of certain ones, His timing was off by just a few days, or hours, or minutes. It was His earlier intention to make sure that they received Baptism of water; He had it all planned out; but alas! on the particular day of their demise, His schedule was so full, that He simply could not get to them; for which reason, in that it was His fault, He is bound to provide an alternative instrumentality: "baptism of desire" is his substitute for the real thing!

The Diluters of the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation do not perceive the Pelagian tenor of their position, that some may be saved outside the Church through nothing but their good will. It is exactly because this is impossible  and, more important, offensive to God, that the notion must be
 rejected. We say impossible, because no man can save himself. The fact that every man must receive Baptism and thus enter the Church means that he is dependent upon God to make it possible for him to receive the Sacrament, and further, through this Sacrament, it is Christ Who acts to purge the sinner of his sins, and ingraft him into His Mystical Body. No individual can do this by himself. He is dependent upon another to pour the water and say the words, and he is dependent upon God to provide this minister, and to make the sacramental sign effective of grace. It is thus so that none may attribute his salvation to his own doing.
 
Pride is the chief vice of man, as it was and is of the demons of Hell. It is pride more than any other fault that blinds men to the truth, that obstructs faith, and hardens their hearts to conversion from sin.

The Doctrine of Predestination is that almighty God from all eternity both knew and determined who would be saved, that is, who would allow Him to save them. He would be the cause of their salvation, and, as there is no power that can even faintly obstruct or withstand Him, there is no power which can prevent His saving whom He wishes, except, of course, the man himself.

The problem here is in the intellect of bowler, stubborn, matto, cantrella, etc.

Regardless of the possible reasons behind this defect in the intellect, it is there nonetheless. I suggest Matthew ban all discussion of BOB/BOD.

The problem here is in the intellect of bowler, stubborn, matto, cantrella, etc.

Regardless of the possible reasons behind this defect in the intellect, it is there nonetheless. I suggest Matthew ban all discussion of BOB/BOD.

I suggest he ban all who repeatedly promote error on the topic.

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The promoters of this heresy have been clever enough to mask it as though it is Catholic truth.  Their sophistries are convincing to those who lack a philosophical and theological background, or those who have not learned their Faith from approved books.

Every heresy of every age pretends that they are the orthodox authentic true Faith.  This one does the same, and it is just as dangerous to Catholics as the Lutherans, the Anabaptists, the Mennonites, etc.

All of these heresies among so many others began with Catholics allowing themselves to  be duped by sophistry, the same as is being used here.

This heresy would have been an isolated sect in the tiny town of Still River, Massachusetts, if not for the chaos of Vatican II and the internet age which has allowed it to spread.