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Author Topic: Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2  (Read 4431 times)

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Offline Exurge

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Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2014, 09:12:14 AM »
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    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.


    Looks pretty clear that you can be saved without the sacraments, by the desire thereof.

    You are anathema!

    Offline Stubborn

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #46 on: April 11, 2014, 03:24:59 PM »
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  • CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

    By promoting salvation without any sacrament at all, you are saying the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation - WILL YOU BE HONEST FOR JUST A MINUTE AND AGREE WITH THAT?



    Now note the second half of the canon how exacting it is in condemning those who say by faith alone, aka a BOD, one attains salvation:

    and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, [faith alone - BOD] the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.


    If you will be honest with yourself for a minute, you will see that without the sacraments or without the desire thereof, no one can even obtain the grace of justification - certainly you agree that if one cannot obtain justification without them, then no one can obtain salvation without them.



    So ask yourself: why is it that you openly deny the infallible canons which explicitly  teach that the sacraments are necessary unto salvation, and that without them one cannot even obtain the grace of justification? You read what it teaches yet you reject the infallible Church teaching, and you promote salvation without any sacrament at all. Why would anyone do this?



    You can read what your "or the desire thereof means below as taught from Trent's Catechism:

    Dispositions for baptism

    Intention

    The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken.



    So as you reject the necessity of receiving the sacrament, and receiving it with the proper disposition, you favor the obviously heretical adulteration of the canon and the infallible teaching of the Church and make the whole sacrament "a take it or leave it option" - exactly as they've been doing in the Novus Ordo.

    I have warned all avid BODers to be mindful of their last hours so that God does not leave you in your last hours with the same Providence you preach - without a priest to administer the last sacrament. If He leaves you without the sacraments at death, doesn't it make perfect sense that it will be because you preached the rejection of them during your life.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Exurge

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #47 on: April 11, 2014, 03:43:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

    By promoting salvation without any sacrament at all, you are saying the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation - WILL YOU BE HONEST FOR JUST A MINUTE AND AGREE WITH THAT?


    It is hilarious - or more like sad - to see how you can be so blind.

    You have the whole canon and you only highlight what you want to believe or choose from it. That is your main problem right there.

    Blind guides, who strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel.

    Offline Exurge

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #48 on: April 11, 2014, 04:06:32 PM »
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  • Why don't you tell us the reason why you reject bod/bob.

    I'll take a wild guess and say that it is because of a certain Fr. Wathen.

    Offline Exurge

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #49 on: April 11, 2014, 04:14:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    you are saying... WILL YOU BE HONEST... If you will be honest with yourself...you will see...you agree... ask yourself...you openly...You read... you reject the infallible Church teaching...you promote salvation without any sacrament at all. Why would anyone do this? ...You can read... what you reject... you favor the obviously heretical adulteration of the canon...


    Tell that to St. Alphonsus, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Bellarmine and all the other Saints and Doctors and Popes who allowed this insidious heresy to run wild.

    Impenetrable self-enclosed reasonings of a madman indeed!


    Offline Stubborn

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #50 on: April 11, 2014, 04:51:27 PM »
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  • You are the one who zooms into the words "desire thereof", purposely rejecting what the canon infallibly teaches.

    You cannot be any more honest with yourself than the other sacrament despisers here, but as long as you keep preaching the sacraments are not a necessity unto salvation, I am telling you, do not expect God to send you a priest in your last hours of need.

    You, like all NSAAers  should expect God to allow you to actually practice what you preached, if you are conscience - I hope it works out for you as well as you say it works out for those who died without the sacrament of baptism, I really do.  

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #51 on: May 09, 2016, 10:57:56 AM »
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    It is widely known of course that St. Augustine, towards the end of his life, wrote his "Retractions" in which he went through all his works and attempted to correct or modify anything he would have said different from how he said it at the time it was originally written. Furthermore, much mileage is made by those denying BOB and/or BOD his use of the phrase "Considering this over and over again..." as though he thought he were going out on a limb by teaching Baptism of Desire. So invariably is St. Augustine portrayed as reversing himself at various times on even this question, as though sometimes he taught one thing and other times the other.

        In this area, it is actually Richard Ibranyi who goes into the most detail, having posited a supposed sequence of some several "reversals" in St. Augustine's position. In his piece, The Final Position of St. Augustine on Baptism, Richard Ibranyi first claims: "One: He teaches the absolute necessity of sacramental baptism by water for salvation:," after which he provides the following quotes:

        St. Augustine: "How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized, and are thus lost forever! ...When we shall have come into the sight of God, we shall behold the equity of His justice. At that time, no one will say: Why did He help this one and not that one? Why was this man led by God's direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster and not baptized? Look for rewards, and you will find nothing but punishments! ….For of what use would repentance be, even before Baptism, if Baptism did not follow? ...No matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized." (The Faith of Our Fathers, Fr. Jurgens, bk. 3, 1496; On the Gospel of St. John, Chapter 13, Tract 7.)

        This is actually a run-together of three different quotes, the second from The Faith of Our Fathers, Fr. Jurgens, bk. 3, 1496, and the third from On the Gospel of St. John, Chapter 13, Tract 7. The Jurgens quote begins with the phrase "When we shall have come…" and the Gospel of Saint John quote begins with "For of what use would repentance…" As for the first quote, no source has been given for it, nor have I seen it anywhere, nor is it credible that any Ancient Father would have taught that, so I am quite free to suggest that it is in all likelyhood something Richard Ibranyi invented whole cloth out of his own imagination. If he can identify where such a quote came from then let him name it that we may look it up for ourselves and discover what would have been really meant. As for the Jurgens quote I have already explained that it pertains to those who seek the Kingdom only for rewards and not for being placed at its service, as in they want the salary without the work, so of course those seeking only rewards, though we do not know this of them, God does, and His judgments are righteous though we do not understand them at the time. As for the "burden of his iniquity" that the catechumen carries until his baptism in water, that is the Purgatorial sentence for all the sins of his life he will endure in Purgatory should he die before baptism, but since it be through no fault of his own he will be saved, though "as through fire." The next couple quotes are quite self-evident:

        St. Augustine: "Note that I speak now both to the faithful and to catechumens. What did I mention in connection with the spittle and the clay? This: the Word became flesh. The catechumens can hear this; but just listening to it does not accomplish that for which they were anointed. Let them hasten to the font if they seek the Light." (The Divine Office, bk., p. 1620, from Fourth Week in Lent, Treatise 44 on John.)

        St. Augustine: "What is the Baptism of Christ? A washing in the word. Take away the water, and there is no Baptism. It is, then, by water, the visible and outward sign of grace, and by the Spirit, Who produces the inward gift of grace, which cancels the bond of sin and restores God's gift to human nature, that the man who was born solely of Adam in the first place is afterwards re-born solely in Christ." ("On John," 15:4, Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Latina, Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris, 1855, vol. 35.)

        It doesn't take rocket science to see that the first is simply an admonition to proceed swiftly and surely to the point of one's baptism, not dawdling, and the second reiterates the fact that the Sacrament requires water as its matter.  Griff Ruby
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #52 on: May 09, 2016, 11:03:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    LoT, why are you starting yet another thread promoting salvation via No Sacrament At All?

    I gave you and all BODers here who preach salvation is rewarded via no sacrament at all a very simple challenge of doing what the Church has always done - - defend the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation - - - but you keep starting threads promoting the Anti-Sacrament.

    From the link above......................

    I am of the opinion that you and the other BODers will remain obstinately attached to your error for as long as you continue with your lex orandi, which is to mock and despise the necessity of the sacraments and the Church for the hope of salvation. As long as you keep repeating the same error, the error will remain the way you believe, the error is your lex credendi.

    NOTE:
    If you do not believe me, if you think I'm wrong, if you want to get it off your chest and really prove and expose to everyone exactly how ignorant of a person I really am, then please prove me completely wrong by starting and participating in a thread in which you do the strictly Catholic thing and actually defend the necessity of the sacraments for the hope of salvation.

    I maintain that you, SJB or Ambrose or any BODer who clings to the belief that salvation without the sacrament is possible, will be both unwilling and unable to get themselves to even think of doing such a thing much less actually do it - it is not just *not* a part of a BODers lex credendi, doing such a thing is actually opposed to a BODers lex credendi.

    This is the easiest way I can think of for you and other BODers to discover for yourselves and on your own that you cannot do the Catholic and outwardly defend, that which you inwardly deeply despise.

    I've asked this of BODers 5 or 6 times now and so far, not even one of them has even acknowledged the challenge, but new threads trivializing the necessity of the sacraments are started by a BODers regularly.

    It is just not a part of a BODer's lex credendi to do the Catholic thing and defend the necessity of the sacraments for the hope of salvation.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #53 on: May 09, 2016, 11:10:49 AM »
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    This next quote is a little bit more interesting for two reasons, one which I will explain by putting the quote in its full context and also the overall context of the docuмent from which it came, and another reason I will get to later on:

        St. Augustine: "Or how can they fail to be saved by water… the same unity of the ark saved them, in which no one has been saved except by water. For Cyprian himself says, 'The Lord is able of His mercy to grant pardon, and not to sever from the gifts of His Church those who, being in all simplicity admitted to the Church, have fallen asleep within her pale.' If not by water, how in the ark? If not in the ark, how in the Church? But if in the Church, certainly in the ark; and if in the ark, certainly by water. …nor can they be said to have been otherwise saved in the ark except by water." (On Baptism (De Baptismo), 5:28.)

        Reading that, one would think St. Augustine was equating the waters of baptism with the waters of the ark. And there is a parallel, for the waters of the ark not only saved those within the ark itself but also killed all those outside, and likewise baptism brings life to those who are within the Church and not sinning, but death to those who are outside (and choosing to remain outside), or else even those inside the Church who fall into mortal sin, and die therein. For this comes from St. Augustine's treatise on Baptism, by which he primarily sought to respond to the heresy of the Donatists, who denied that baptisms administered by sinners could be valid. St. Augustine points out that those baptized outside the Church, whether by the Donatists or any other heretics, do indeed validly baptize (place the mark of baptism on the soul of the recipient), but that it avails them no salvation, but does mean that they should not be baptized when they repent and decide to enter the Church. However, one sees more of what is going on at this point when the quote is given in full:

        St. Augustine, On Baptism, Book 5 Chapter 28 (39): Wherefore, if those appear to men to be baptized in Catholic unity who renounce the world in words only and not in deeds, how do they belong to the mystery of this ark in whom there is not the answer of a good conscience? Or how are they saved by water, who, making a bad use of holy baptism, though they seem to be within, yet persevere to the end of their days in a wicked and abandoned course of life? Or how can they fail to be saved by water, of whom Cyprian himself records that they were in time past simply admitted to the Church with the baptism which they had received in heresy? For the same unity of the ark saved them, in which no one has been saved except by water. For Cyprian himself says, "The Lord is able of His mercy to grant pardon, and not to sever from the gifts of His Church those who, being in all simplicity admitted to the Church, have fallen asleep within her pale." If not by water, how in the ark? If not in the ark, how in the Church? But if in the Church, certainly in the ark; and if in the ark, certainly by water. It is therefore possible that some who have been baptized without may be considered, through the foreknowledge of God, to have been really baptized within, because within the water begins to be profitable to them unto salvation; nor can they be said to have been otherwise saved in the ark except by water. And again, some who seemed to have been baptized within may be considered, through the same foreknowledge of God, more truly to have been baptized without, since, by making a bad use of baptism, they die by water, which then happened to no one who was not outside the ark. Certainly it is clear that, when we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body, since all who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark through the same water, through which all who are in heart without, whether they are also in body without or not, die as enemies of unity. As therefore it was not another but the same water that saved those who were placed within the ark, and destroyed those who were left without the ark, so it is not by different baptisms, but by the same, that good Catholics are saved, and bad Catholics or heretics perish.

        One should see from this that St. Augustine was here writing about what St. Cyprian spoke of regarding those who were baptized by heretics outside the Church, but who converted and were received by the Church without rebaptism, as quoted earlier this installment. St. Cyprian had regarded those heretical baptisms as all categorically invalid, and therefore their receptions into the Church without rebaptism as instances of Baptism of Desire (or of Blood in the case of those heretically baptized, subsequently accepted into the Church without rebaptism, and then martyred). St. Augustine was not denying that there existed Baptism of Blood or Desire, but saying that neither of those had anything to do with the case of these persons who had been baptized only by the heretics since they in fact had been validly baptized already, though outside the Church by heretics. Griff Ruby
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #54 on: May 09, 2016, 11:33:12 AM »
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  • C'mon LoE and give us something beneficial. Something that defends the necessity of the sacraments for our salvation please.

    You've avoided this request for 2 1/2 years now, don't you think it's about time you either put up or shut up?

    Can you even attempt to defend the absolute necessity of the sacraments for our salvation or will you let your inherent deep repugnance for them continue to guide your thinking?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire Pt 2
    « Reply #55 on: May 09, 2016, 11:36:34 AM »
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    Richard Ibranyi then claims: "Two: Contradicting his above teaching, St. Augustine, in City of God, teaches that an unbaptized catechumen-meaning he has explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Trinity and an explicit desire to be baptized-can be justified if he dies unbaptized and as a martyr." But of course St. Augustine in no way contradicted himself, he was merely being misquoted before. The single quote given here of a supposed "second" position is merely that from the City of God which has already been given in previous installments, but I give it again here:

        St. Augustine: "I have in mind those unbaptized persons who die confessing the name of Christ. They receive the forgiveness of their sins as completely as if they had been cleansed by the waters of baptism. For, He who said: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,' made exceptions in other decisions which are no less universal: 'Everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge him before my Father in heaven'; and again: 'He who loses his life for my sake will find it.' So, too, in the psalm: 'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.' For, what could be more precious than a death, which remits all sin and amasses merit? Men, unable to defer their death, who are baptized, and thus depart from life with all their sins forgiven, are not equal in merit to those who have not postponed death, although they could have done so, because they preferred to lose life by confessing Christ than, by denying Him, to gain time for Baptism." (City of God, Bk. XIII, Chap. 7.)

        Richard Ibranyi then claims: "Three: In another of his works, On Baptism (De baptismo), St. Augustine contradicts himself by teaching baptism is actually administered, invisibly, to worthy catechumens who seemed to die without it," after which he provides the following quote:

        St. Augustine: "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom has not contempt of religion (the Catholic Religion) but death excludes." (On Baptism, Against the Donatists (De Baptismo), Bk. IV, Chap. 22.)

    After which he goes on to comment:

        He teaches, "Baptism is ministered invisibly." By using the word "ministered," he clearly teaches someone, a minister, administers the sacrament of baptism. By invisibly, he means it is not known to anyone but the minister and maybe very few, so that there is no public record. This can take place miraculously if God allows a minister to be transported to baptize such a one with water. Or God can even temporarily raise a catechumen from the dead so he can be baptized by a minister in a way not known by anyone else.

        In point of fact, St. Augustine teaches no such thing. The "invisible baptism" of which he speaks is none other than Baptism of Desire, or of Blood, in which the graces of the Sacrament are placed upon a soul directly by God upon that soul's entrance into the next life. It is invisible in the same sense as the concept, however unwelcome or easily abused, that some spoke of an "invisible" church consisting only of those who are actually in a state of Grace, or else already saved by being in Purgatory or Heaven. The visible Church here on earth has no registry of any water baptism of the soul in question, and in fact believes the soul to have not been baptized in water at all. If ever some unknown minister of the Sacrament were to secretly or quietly perform the sacrament, whether miraculously transported or not, whether the soul was miraculously resurrected for the purpose or not, that secret minister has a duty before God to report what he did to the Church. However, once that occurs, even if known only to that minister, the baptized soul (now gone to its Maker), and some Church official who thereby proceeded to enter the record of the baptism into his parish baptismal registry, it would cease to be "invisible" in any real sense of the word, and that detail would certainly emerge if the life of the soul in question were being investigated, for example in his cause for sainthood. Griff Ruby
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church