Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: Lover of Truth on May 11, 2016, 02:00:58 PM
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We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (magisterium).
Some feeneyites deny that we have to accept what is divinely revealed through the ordinary and universal teaching office. Others deny that what is divinely revealed through the ordinary and universal teaching office is divinely revealed. Whatever it takes to deny the doctrine and hold fast to the feeneyite novelty.
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This quote refers to infallible dogmas concerning the Word of God or Divine Revelation that we must hold with "Divine and Catholic faith". These can EITHER be taught solemnly, OR by the ordinary & universal magisterium. Nevertheless, this is about the teachings themselves the Magisterium declares "in a definitive way". It does not mean that very single statement from a Magisterial docuмent must be given the assent of "Divine and Catholic Faith"
There is nothing in Suprema Haec that Catholics must hold with "divine and Catholic Faith". There is not even a teaching there that the Magisterium declares "in a definitive way" regarding faith and morals, which, even if not part of the Divine Revelation (Depositum Fidei) itself, is intrinsically or historically connected with it.
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Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
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Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
.....Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.....These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943
Fr. Feeney, who many wrongfully say was not a member, per SH he certainly belonged to it anyway via desire and longing.
And since Fr. Feeney, received the the Last Rites before he died, he is to be counted among the faithful departed and on account of receiving the Last Sacraments before he died, is more likely to be in heaven than in purgatory.
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In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed towards man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when these helps are used only in intention or desire (ubi voto solummodo vel desiderio adhibeantur). This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both with reference to the sacrament of regeneration and with reference to the sacrament of penance.
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In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed towards man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when these helps are used only in intention or desire (ubi voto solummodo vel desiderio adhibeantur). This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both with reference to the sacrament of regeneration and with reference to the sacrament of penance.
Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
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In its own way, the same thing must be said about the Church, insofar as the Church itself is a general help to salvation. Therefore, in order that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is required that at least he be united to it by intention and desire.
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In its own way, the same thing must be said about the Church, insofar as the Church itself is a general help to salvation. Therefore, in order that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is required that at least he be united to it by intention and desire.
Reading this, it should be clear to you that all The Letter did, was take Fr. Feeney from being incorporated into the Church actually as a member, to being united to it by intention and desire.
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However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but, when a person is involved in invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit intention (votum) which is so called because it is included in that good disposition of the soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
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Note that the desire can be implicit. But Faith must be explicit and supernatural. Merely having a strong desire to have the minimal requirements of supernatural Faith based upon God revealing is not enough. And having the Faith is not enough apart from supernatural charity. I believe one with supernatural Faith and perfect charity (for perfect charity does not allow for culpable ignorance) is on the path to becoming a member of the Catholic Church and in normal circuмstances only death will stop such a person from joining her as a member.
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However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens;.... God accepts also an implicit intention (votum) which is so called because it is included in that good disposition of the soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
Here is yet more evidence that the bogus excommunication was little more than a slanderous exercise.
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Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Your interpretation of what this means is sheer Pelagianism.
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Yes, this was one of my first disputes with Lover of Heresy. LoH conflates religious submission and divine faith, thus effectively rendering any offhand remark in an allocution to have the same force as a solemn dogmatic definition in Trent. Unfortunately, this mentality -- which plagues many a sedevacantist -- leads to bizarre neurotic tendencies among them. With regard to LoH, his contempt for EENS has led to a psychosis ... the common effect of pertinacious heresy.
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These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, "On the Mystical body of Jesus Christ." For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are really (in re) incorporated into the Church as members and those who are joined to it only in intention (in voto).
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These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, "On the Mystical body of Jesus Christ." For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are really (in re) incorporated into the Church as members and those who are joined to it only in intention (in voto).
#1) Encyclicals are not per se dogmatic. You may wish to read your hero Msgr. Fenton's paper on the subject.
#2) Cite the passage and demonstrate that being joined to the Church in voto suffices for salvation if one were to die in that state.
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These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, "On the Mystical body of Jesus Christ." For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are really (in re) incorporated into the Church as members and those who are joined to it only in intention (in voto).
"For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are really (in re) incorporated into the Church as members and those who are joined to it only in intention (in voto)."
And per SH, it distinguishes that prior to SH, Fr. Feeney was "really (in re) incorporated into the Church as [a] member", but after SH, Fr. Feeney was still a member, but now "joined to it only in intention (in voto)."
It makes the whole purpose of The Letter as being nothing but one giant slanderous attack on Fr. Feeney don't you agree?
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Towards the end of the same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church (qui ad Ecclesiae Catholicae compagem non pertinent), he mentions those who are "ordered to the Redeemer's Mystical Body by a sort of unconscious desire and intention," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but, on the contrary, asserts that they are in a condition in which "they cannot be secure about their own eternal salvation," since "they still lack so many and such great heavenly helps to salvation that can be enjoyed only in the Catholic Church."
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Towards the end of the same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church (qui ad Ecclesiae Catholicae compagem non pertinent), he mentions those who are "ordered to the Redeemer's Mystical Body by a sort of unconscious desire and intention," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but, on the contrary, asserts that they are in a condition in which "they cannot be secure about their own eternal salvation," since "they still lack so many and such great heavenly helps to salvation that can be enjoyed only in the Catholic Church."
See, Fr. Feeney's desire and longing to be part of the Mystical Body was explicit and conscious. He actually had the heavenly helps to secure his eternal salvation before he died.
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Towards the end of the same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church (qui ad Ecclesiae Catholicae compagem non pertinent), he mentions those who are "ordered to the Redeemer's Mystical Body by a sort of unconscious desire and intention," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but, on the contrary, asserts that they are in a condition in which "they cannot be secure about their own eternal salvation," since "they still lack so many and such great heavenly helps to salvation that can be enjoyed only in the Catholic Church."
So now you can discern "dogmatic" statements in inferred corollaries?
This statement can be read in multiple ways. It's yet another unfortunate contribution that Pius XII made to the coming destruction. Nevertheless, to state that those who are not actual members of the Church cannot be sure of their salvation does not necessarily mean that they could be saved if they died IN THAT STATE. Salvation represents the state of soul at death. Can even those who are members of the Church be "sure" of their salvation? Of course not. Not until they have died and have received the grace of final perseverance. Consequently, the implied corollary, that members of the Church can be "sure" of their salvation, simply doesn't exist. Similarly, the implication that you read into this that those who have this relationship to the Church could be saved if they died in that state doesn't follow either. If they are somehow yearning and moving TOWARDS the Church, God will undoubtedly bring them into the Church at some point, and THEN if they persevere within that Church, they would THEN be saved. But at no point until then is ANYONE "sure" of their salvation.
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With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all those united to the Church only by implicit desire and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally (aequaliter) in every religion.
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With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all those united to the Church only by implicit desire and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally (aequaliter) in every religion.
He reproves those who exclude Fr. Feeney from eternal salvation, Fr. Feeney, who was at least united to the Church by desire and longing.
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Nor must we think that any kind of intention of entering the Church is sufficient in order that one may be saved. It is requisite that the intention by which one is ordered to the Church should be informed by perfect charity; and no explicit intention can produce its effect unless the man have supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him." The Council of Trent declares: "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children." [The original Latin text and the official English translation of the Suprema haec sacra appeared in AER, CXXVII, 4 (Oct., 1952), 307-15. The part of the translation quoted above is on pp. 312-14.]
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Nor must we think that any kind of intention of entering the Church is sufficient in order that one may be saved. It is requisite that the intention by which one is ordered to the Church should be informed by perfect charity; and no explicit intention can produce its effect unless the man have supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him." The Council of Trent declares: "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children." [The original Latin text and the official English translation of the Suprema haec sacra appeared in AER, CXXVII, 4 (Oct., 1952), 307-15. The part of the translation quoted above is on pp. 312-14.]
Yes!
Fr. Feeney certainly had perfect charity and supernatural faith, which as Trent states, is necessary to please God!
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1. The teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is a dogma of the Catholic faith.
2. This dogma has always been taught, and will always be taught, infallibly by the Church's magisterium.
3. The dogma must be understood and explained as the Church's magisterium understands and explains it.
4. The Church is necessary for salvation with both a necessity of precept and a necessity of means.
5. Because the Church is necessary for salvation with the necessity of precept, any person who knows the Church to have been divinely instituted by Our Lord and yet refuses to enter it or to remain within it cannot attain eternal salvation.
6. The Church is a general and necessary means for salvation, not by reason of any intrinsic necessity, but only by God's Own institution, that is, because God in His merciful wisdom has established it as such.
7. In order that a man may be saved "within" the Church, it is not always necessary that he belong to the Church in re, actually as a member, but it can sometimes be enough that he belong to it as one who desires or wills to be in it. In other words, it is possible for one who belongs to the Church only in desire or in voto to be saved.
8. It is possible for this desire of entering the Church to be effective, not only when it is explicit, but also (when the person is invincibly ignorant of the true Church) even when that desire or votum is merely implicit.
9. The Mystici Corporis reproved both the error of those who teach the impossibility of salvation for those who have only an implicit desire of entering the Church, and the false doctrine of those who claim that men may find salvation equally in every religion.
10. No desire to enter the Church can be effective for salvation unless it is enlightened by supernatural faith and animated or motivated by perfect charity.
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1. The teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is a dogma of the Catholic faith.
2. This dogma has always been taught, and will always be taught, infallibly by the Church's magisterium.
3. The dogma must be understood and explained as the Church's magisterium understands and explains it.
4. The Church is necessary for salvation with both a necessity of precept and a necessity of means.
5. Because the Church is necessary for salvation with the necessity of precept, any person who knows the Church to have been divinely instituted by Our Lord and yet refuses to enter it or to remain within it cannot attain eternal salvation.
6. The Church is a general and necessary means for salvation, not by reason of any intrinsic necessity, but only by God's Own institution, that is, because God in His merciful wisdom has established it as such.
7. In order that a man may be saved "within" the Church, it is not always necessary that he belong to the Church in re, actually as a member, but it can sometimes be enough that he belong to it as one who desires or wills to be in it. In other words, it is possible for one who belongs to the Church only in desire or in voto to be saved.
8. It is possible for this desire of entering the Church to be effective, not only when it is explicit, but also (when the person is invincibly ignorant of the true Church) even when that desire or votum is merely implicit.
9. The Mystici Corporis reproved both the error of those who teach the impossibility of salvation for those who have only an implicit desire of entering the Church, and the false doctrine of those who claim that men may find salvation equally in every religion.
10. No desire to enter the Church can be effective for salvation unless it is enlightened by supernatural faith and animated or motivated by perfect charity.
Hurray! It's good that you finally see that the whole slanderous Fr. Feeney fiasco was a diabolical smear campaign and that he was never outside the Church for even a moment, all you need to do now is accept Trent's infallible decrees on the necessity of the sacraments for salvation. That'll give you something to work on.
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I read the "brothers" Diamond book on the topic in its entirety and became convinced that they were correct. I did not realize that they took quotes out of context.
I also did not realize the extent that the Church teaches BOB/D infallibly in her ordinary magisterium.
Think of a different topic where one affirms one thing correctly but denies another thing incorrectly.
Those who hold the erroneous to heretical position on EEENS that the brother's do are akin to those who think the following:
Scripture is infallible. Scripture says Jesus had brothers. Mary is not ever-virgin.
You have to take the quotes the brother’s supply in context. Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus is as an infallible Dogma thrice defined. On this we must agree. The proper understanding of this Dogma is vital in order to avoid confusion.
The Church is composed of the Militant, Suffering and Triumphant.
When someone who had planned on being baptized and was not needlessly putting it off dies before he can be baptized he has Baptism of Desire applied to him at the moment of death where he officially becomes a member of the Church (Suffering or Triumphant). This can also be the case for those who are truly invincibly ignorant which means not only do they not know that the Catholic Church is the One True Church but they also could not reasonably find this out. It is up to God to sort out the invincibly ignorant from those who are culpable for our ignorance, not us.
Those who die for Christ or for His sake or the sake of His Church have Baptism of Blood applied at the moment of death and are a part of the Church Triumphant at the moment of death.
The sincere who truly want to know the truth or who want to try to legitimately defend their erroneous to heretical understanding of EENS against the Popes, Doctors and other Saints who disagree with the Feeneyites and agree with the Church infallible ordinary magisterium on the issue will read the following in their entirety.
The willfully blind and intellectually dishonest people who hold to this error/heresy will not read it and may therefore be considered to be culpably ignorant at the moment of death and therefore outside the very Church they claimed you have to be in order to be saved:
Installment 97: Begin at the Beginning Part Thirteen of "The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty"
Installment 96: The Proof Part Three of a three-part treatise "Anatomy of a Papal Resignation"
Installment 95: The Precedents Part Two of a three-part treatise "Anatomy of a Papal Resignation"
Installment 94: The Procedure Part One of a three-part treatise "Anatomy of a Papal Resignation"
Installment 93: Thinking Inside the Church and Outside the Conciliar Box Amping up the discussion on how sedevacantism is the only conclusion in light of the facts presented
Installment 92: Dead or Alive, Anonymous Apostates Are Known to God Part Three of a three-part Interlude
Installment 91: The Slippery Slope to Sophistry Part Two of a three-part Interlude
Installment 90: Genesis of the Polemics Against Feeneyism Part One of a three-part Interlude
Installment 89: To Go Where No Saint Has Gone Before The Society's dangerous course
Installment 88: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Twelve, part c Closing Arguments against the Thesis and Feeneyism
Installment 87: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Twelve, part b The Catechism vs. the Thesis and Feeneyism
Installment 86: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Twelve, part a The Church Theologians vs. the Thesis and Feeneyism
Installment 85: A Good Christmas Annual Nativity Message
Installment 84: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Eleven, part b The Church vs. Feeneyism
Installment 83: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Eleven, part a Conspiracy of a Cult
Installment 82: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Ten, part b Desire to Know the Full Truth about Baptism of Desire
Installment 81: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Ten, part a Fathers Know Best what desires God Desires
Installment 80: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Nine Bobbing for BOB
Installment 79: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Eight When all else fails, blame God!
Installment 78: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Seven The Evidence is Overwhelming!
Installment 77: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Six It's All Or Nothing!
Installment 76: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Five What About the What-abouts?
Installment 75: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Four The Treatise is in Contempt of Context
Installment 74: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Three Three who dare challenge Church Teaching
Installment 73: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part Two Ellipses can Eclipse Ecclesial Intent
Installment 72: The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty, Part One Word Twisting to Change the Meaning
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Those who hold the erroneous to heretical position on EEENS that the brother's do are akin to those who think the following:
Scripture is infallible. Scripture says Jesus had brothers. Mary is not ever-virgin.
You cannot be serious.
How many baptisms are there LoE?
Eph 4:5 is quite clear that there is one Lord, one faith and one baptism, now, how many baptisms are there?
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Those who hold the erroneous to heretical position on EEENS that the brother's do are akin to those who think the following:
Scripture is infallible. Scripture says Jesus had brothers. Mary is not ever-virgin.
You cannot be serious.
He's become mentally deranged. Also, LoH has made it clear that he has absolutely no competence to even discuss theological matters. He doesn't have the slightest notion of scholatic theological methods, and can't see a missing distinction if it hit him in the face. What's more, he's blinded by bad will. He refuses to accept the dogma EENS, and so he froths at the mouth against it every chance he gets.
Lover of Heresy, you have made yourself absolutely obnoxious with your troll spamming. If someone attempts to address/refute a point you've made, 90% of the time you respond with another spam post entirely unrelated to the point at hand. When one or another point of yours has been refuted, you change the subject with a completely unrelated spam post. If I wanted to play your game, I could simply start spamming in articles from catholicism.org or from the Dimond brothers, until we did nothing but alternate spam posts. Your behavior is absolutely childish.
In addition, you suffer from severe psychological problems -- various neuroses and psychoses that result from the darkness in your soul due to heretical depravity. You have the hubris of claiming that your understanding/interpretation of the Magisterium = the Magisterium itself and that rejecting your often-ridiculous arguments is tantamount to rejecting the Magisterium.
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Those who hold the erroneous to heretical position on EEENS that the brother's do are akin to those who think the following:
Scripture is infallible. Scripture says Jesus had brothers. Mary is not ever-virgin.
You cannot be serious.
That is an absolutely retarded analogy.
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Finally, it is true that there is only one way to enter the Church Militant, and that is indeed by water baptism. A catechumen, though associated with the Church, though blessed by the Church, though he himself becomes a blessing to the Church, nevertheless remains outside the Church so long as he remains thus, whether innocently or guiltily. And that innocence or guilt is something that God alone sees in the heart of the individual. And seeing that innocence or guilt in the heart of a soul abruptly forced into eternity ahead of the due time for their baptism by water into the Church Militant, is it not for God to determine on a case by case basis whether that soul shall be damned if guilty (as in the case criticized by St. John Chrysostom), or else admitted directly into either the Church Suffering or the Church Triumphant if that soul be innocent in His sight, and that without their ever having been in the Church Militant?
So to sum up, there are six realities that must be borne in mind when reading the following quotes, so as to read them in the sense always and forever intended by the Church, and with the Mind of the Church, understanding them exactly as they were written, and not with the alien interpretation foisted upon them by the likes of Peter Dimond and Fr. Feeney:
1) Those passages referring to damnation of those outside the Church always carry a sense of "do not" and never "have not."
2) Those passages that make sweeping generalizations would naturally have to admit certain limited exceptions, as can be defended by other doctrines as applicable.
3) Those passages referring to saved souls can only be speaking of those who are in either Purgatory or Heaven, nowhere else.
4) Those passages referring to the Church as the only means of salvation mean that no other "church" can save, but do not limit the Church's methods for applying God's Grace to souls.
5) Those passages referring to the necessity to "abide" or "remain" or "continue" in the Church have no bearing on questions of BOB and BOD and entrance requirements since they speak only to those who are already in the Church Militant.
6) Those passages which speak of water baptism as being the only means of entering the Church are speaking of how to enter the Church Militant, the only one of the three levels of the Church which one can voluntarily join.
So, taking into account the above listed six realities, one at last can read the following doctrinal and dogmatic magisterial statements in their true sense, that which the Church has always intended by them from the very beginning:
Note: Numbers in brackets in bold after each quote indicate which of the above six points apply to the quote.
"… the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ… Nor is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name, under Heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) [4]
"If anyone abideth not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth" (St. John 15:6) [5]
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: "With the admonition of the apostle that 'there is one God, one faith, one baptism' (Eph. 4:5) may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that 'those who are not with Christ are against Him,' (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, 'without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate" (Athanasian Creed).[5]
Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: "There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice." [3]
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: "With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin…
Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff." [4,5]
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: "Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…" [3,5]
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: "Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity." [5]
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra: "For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith." [3,5]
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, "Iniunctum nobis," Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…" [2,4]
Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: "This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…" [2,4]
Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…" [2,4]
Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio, 590-604: "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved." [1]
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: "By the
heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved." [3]
Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351: "In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved." [1,4]
Pope St. Pius V, Bull excommunicating the heretic Queen Elizabeth of England, Feb. 25, 1570: "The sovereign jurisdiction of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, has been given by Him, unto Whom all power in Heaven and on Earth is given, the King who reigns on high, but to one person on the face of the Earth, to Peter, prince of the Apostles... If any shall contravene this Our decree, we bind them with the same bond of anathema." [1,3,5]
Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824: "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church." [4]
Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: "We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation. In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation." [4]
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: "With the admonition of the apostle, that 'there is one God, one faith, one baptism' (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that 'those who are not with Christ are against Him,' (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, 'without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed)." [1,4,5]
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832: "Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life." [1,3]
Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: "For 'there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism." [3,4]
Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: "In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics)." [1,4]
Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 - Proposition 16: "Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."33 - Condemned. [4]
Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900: "Christ is man's 'Way'; the Church also is His 'Way'… Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain." [1,4]
Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: "Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…" [1,4]
Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: "The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society. Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station and office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation." [4]
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation." [1,4,5]
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, On the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, ex cathedra: "But in fact this sacrament [Penance] is seen to differ in many respects from baptism. For, apart from the fact that the matter and form, by which the essence of a sacrament is constituted, are totally distinct, there is certainly no doubt that the minister of baptism need not be a judge, since the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not previously entered it by the gate of baptism. For what have I to do with those who are without (1 Cor. 5:12), says the Apostle. It is otherwise with those of the household of the faith, whom Christ the Lord by the laver of baptism has once made 'members of his own body' (1 Cor. 12:13)." [4,5]
Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, "Exultate Deo," Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: "Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, 'unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,' as the Truth says, 'enter into the kingdom of heaven'. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water." [6]
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: "Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration [water baptism] and profess the true faith." [6]
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 27), June 29, 1943: "He (Christ) also determined that through Baptism (cf. Jn. 3:5) those who should believe would be incorporated in the Body of the Church." [2,6]
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: "In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration." [6]
Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: "But the sacrament of baptism is consecrated in water at the invocation of the undivided Trinity - namely, Father, Son and Holy Ghost - and brings salvation to both children and adults when it is correctly carried out by anyone in the form laid down by the Church." [6]
Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: "Likewise (I profess) that baptism is necessary for salvation, and hence, if there is imminent danger of death, it should be conferred at once and without delay, and that it is valid if conferred with the right matter and form and intention by anyone, and at any time." [1,2]
Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas (# 15), Dec. 11, 1925: "Indeed this kingdom is presented in the Gospels as such, into which men prepare to enter by doing penance; moreover, they cannot enter it except through faith and baptism, which, although an external rite, yet signifies and effects an interior regeneration." [1,6]
Pope St. Leo the Great, dogmatic letter to Flavian, Council of Chalcedon, 451: "Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ's blood (1 Pet. 1:2); and let him not skip over the same apostle's words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot (1 Pet. 1:18). Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin (1 Jn. 1:7); and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? It is He, Jesus Christ, who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony - Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. (1 Jn. 5:4-8) in other words, the Spirit of sanctification and the Blood of redemption and the water of Baptism. These three are one and remain indivisible. None of them is separable from its link with the others." [1,2,6]
It behooves us to look closely at the favorite "authoritative quote" so misapplied in the Treatise and by all opposers of BOB/BOD:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." [1,2,5]
Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.
So, what all this means is that the above quotations can therefore be eliminated as valid prooftexts by which some use to deny BOB/BOD. It has to be clear that none of the above quotes even address BOB/BOD, let alone condemn it, for indeed if any of the above could have been so taken, how is it that so many popes, saints, doctors, fathers, and other formal doctrinal sources could ever possibly ignored these in their affirmation of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire?
Griff Ruby
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Those who hold the erroneous to heretical position on EEENS that the brother's do are akin to those who think the following:
Scripture is infallible. Scripture says Jesus had brothers. Mary is not ever-virgin.
You cannot be serious.
That is an absolutely retarded analogy.
Yes, I must agree. I was hoping he was not actually serious, but I am wrong.
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http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Lover-of-Truth-Spamming-Up-Crisis-Sub-Forum
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http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Lover-of-Truth-Spamming-Up-Crisis-Sub-Forum
Thank you.
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Also, this is the prayer of my heart:
"Lord, if I do not know Thee, and I do not know Thy Truth as I ought, at least I know that wherever the Truth is, there Thou art. Please call me to Thyself, and grant me grace that I may respond, and may nevermore offend Thee."
Lastly, please address this for me, the Church has canonized saints that they believed were never baptized, does the Church canonizing people they believe were not baptized with water show that they believe in BOB/D or not?
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Since you've finally made a single addressable point, I will take the time to respond.
These "catechumen" canonizations were not the kind that are done formally and solemnly by the Church for the last few centuries but are of the canonization by popular acclaim type that St. Thomas distinguishes from the formal ones that invoke the Church's full authority. In addition, we have no idea whether the Church considered them to be unbaptized catechumens or not. Catechumens, as I have discussed, were often baptized in times of emergency but continued on in their status as catechumens (receiving further instruction before being admitted to the fuller mysteries and additional Sacraments ... and continuing to be called catechumens). Those one or two accounts that claim these were unbaptized were often written third-hand, sometimes many centuries later, so it's quite possible that a prior record referring to a certain person as a catechumen led to the assumption that they had not been baptized. As in the St. Alban incident, it's obvious that the miraculous spring came about as an attempt to baptize rather than to quench thirst. So these examples prove nothing. You also had early Church Councils lay down the discipline that unbaptized catechumens were NOT to receive the rites of Christian burial nor public prayers of the Church.
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The denial of the ordinary infallible teaching of the Church on BOB/D is an over-reaction to to false ecuмenism. . .at least in some instances in my opinion.
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The denial of the ordinary infallible teaching of the Church on BOB/D is an over-reaction to to false ecuмenism. . .at least in some instances in my opinion.
And it is my opinion that you extend the ordinary infallible teaching of the Church beyond what it actually means. Indeed, BoD has become an extremely common and widespread opinion at least during the last two hundred years or so. This, however, is not tantamount to being a teaching of the ordinary infallible Magisterium. It's a widely-held opinion of speculative theology, but that is all. Similarly, for about 700 years, pretty much everyone held the opinion (following St. Augustine), that unbaptized infants who die suffer the pains of sense in hell (albeit mild ones). This was eventually rejected by the Church, despite being widely held. Ironically, it was Abelard who first questioned this, and his opinion was adopted by the Church and vindicated, the same Abelard who rejected Baptism of Desire. Widely-held opinion does not constitute a teaching of the infallible ordinary Magisterium. If it did, then Vatican II should be infallible on the same grounds. Except I guess that you hold that the entire Church had fallen into apostasy sometime before then. 99% of all professed Catholics believe in all the teachings of Vatican II.
With regard to the ordinary infallible Magisterium, it must also meet the other notes of infallibility as defined by Vatican I for the solemn/extraordinary infallibility, i.e. that it must be a question of faith or morals defined by the Church as revealed and having to be held by all the Church.
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From Griff Ruby on Daily Catholic:
With the preparation of any thesis attempting to prove anything at all, there are bound to surface some objections that could be raised against it. Academic institutions (at least, those with any genuine standing) will subject its prospective Ph.D. and Th.D. students who have prepared a thesis, necessary for the degree, to a rigorous oral examination in which various sorts of challenges to their thesis are raised and which they must answer if they are to obtain the degree. To actually "say something" in the academic sense requires something much more than a mere statement of what is proposed. Evidences must be gathered, reasons propounded, and most of all, objections must all be responded to.
The necessity to respond to objections need not necessarily require that all of them be utterly routed, for by the very nature some may only be shown to be minority viewpoints or small details which may point to areas of further growth or development of their thesis. Still other objections may be found to have nothing but a probability influence. When, for example, something is spoken of as being certain "with a 98% probability" that automatically implies a 2% possibility that the finding is wrong, perhaps the samples that were used all happened to have been skewed, or some other reasons to question or doubt, though by no means reject the thesis proposed. For the duration of this series I will refer to such partial objections as being "erosionary." The other two types are the objection which can be totally answered and responded to, such that it basically just goes away, and at the other extreme the "smoking gun" yea verily objection that of itself is enough to blow the thesis utterly out of the water. Obviously objections of this last sort tend to be very rare in any academic endeavor.
In dealing with questions of interpreting Sacred Scripture (or Church Fathers for that matter), one can always find reasons for one position, and yet also other reasons for some contradictory position to the first. And with the Fathers this is only all the worse since unlike Scripture they are not infallible, and yet the Church necessarily relies heavily upon them for understanding how the early Church understood the Scriptures as written in those earliest days of the Church's life.
When the Fathers are unanimous on some teaching then that fact alone is taken to mean that the teaching is yea verily infallible. There also can exist a "moral unanimity" in which a clear and vast majority of the Fathers take one position and only the smallest number of lesser lights only rather indirectly and casually take the alternate, but the definition of exactly how close this "moral unanimity" needs to be to being an "absolute unanimity" to count similarly is beyond the scope of what I can address here.
I do however take particular exception to the sort of "reasoning" that says "well, here are 8 Fathers who say one thing, 6 others who say another, and 2 more that say yet something else, so now let's just see how many there are," as if deciding doctrinal issues were merely a matter of putting up the Fathers to a vote. The truly credible approach would be to look at what the Fathers actually have to say about the issue. Some may indeed merely state in passing some position or another with no explanation, but others will often do much more than that, for example stating their reasons why they take one position or another. Do different Fathers adduce different reasons to take the same position? And how do the reasons for one position stack up against the reasons for the other? And even such reasons as support some proposition, are those reasons consistent among themselves? As seen in a previous installment, it is one thing to say that St. Augustine weighed in, favoring Baptisms of blood and desire, as though all he said was "I believe in them" and then move on to other topics, but quite another to see some of what he actually has to say as to the scriptural, logical, and historical reasons why.
Looking at the reasons why (where provided by the Father of the Church in question) might also provide some insight into why different positions might be taken and even perhaps show the Fathers to have not been in conflict at all but addressing different issues. The example of Saint Augustine speaking of the salvation of unbaptized catechumens who die prematurely can be easily reconciled with Saint John Chrysostom's view that catechumens who die as such for being tardy in their baptism would be damned. Once one sees what both Fathers have to say, then there (often) is no conflict. Saint Cyprian is often faulted for stating that heretical baptisms are invalid, but in the case of some heretical baptisms, namely those in which the basic formula is not sufficiently followed, they would indeed be invalid. If this had been the case with the particular heretics he had in mind when he said that, then he really would not have been considered wrong about it at all.
One should be able to state a case and then have only some very few (if any) erosionary exceptions to the case, especially when it comes to something as arguable as the interpretation of Scripture. A rather choice and comical example comes from my days with the Watchtower Society. A few weeks after I met my first Jehovah's Witness, but four years before I joined it formally, they published a book titled "Is This Life All There Is?" In this book they present, in the fullest amount of detail as one finds in one spot, their views on life and death and the afterlife and the resurrection.
Anyone familiar with the distinctive doctrines of the Watchtower Society or their history would have to know that one of their favorite doctrinal positions is to deny the fires of Hell. Interestingly, their history with this doctrine began with a certain Henry Grew from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania whose writings about the condition of the dead had impressed, in turn, a certain George Storrs, who went on to publish the Bible Examiner in Brooklyn, New York. Meanwhile, a young man named Charles Taze Russell was growing up with a certain obsession with the morbid thought of the damned burning in Hell. For a while in his teens he would scrawl graffiti on the walls of buildings and other places warning sinners to repent lest they fall into the fires of Hell. But in time he came across the writings of George Storrs (and indirectly also through others who had been influenced by George Storrs), and with a feeling of relief abandoned his belief. After all, it is admittedly a most unpleasant thought, but refusing to think about it, or to believe in it, won't make it go away, but instead only increase the chances of going there. George Storrs passed away in 1879, but by then Charles Russell had already made a name for himself among the various Adventist and Christadelphian circles, and he was just getting started, having already begun publishing his own magazine earlier that year, Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence, which continues to be published to this day, now as The Watchtower.
From those days until now Charles Russell clear through to his following disciples today (the Jehovah's Witnesses, along with also a smattering of tiny "Russellite" groups), have done everything in their power to turn the hose on Hell. After all, the damned could not go to Heaven (for they would ruin it if they did), so what then would become of them? Their answer was that they simply cease to exist altogether (annihilation). And how does one go about proving annihilation except by attempting to "prove" that all the dead have ceased to exist, and can only return into existence if God calls them back from nonexistence? But how does one square a thing like this with Sacred Scripture? At least in the case of the Holy Trinity the Scriptural clues are so subtle and so indirect that any as simple and naïve reader as myself could (and did) miss them altogether on one's first reading of the Bible. They had no trouble selling their denial of the Holy Trinity, for I had already independently read the Bible for myself and saw no such thing in it (as I said, the clues are subtle - blink and you miss them - I did). But that the damned would be sustained in a place called Hell and kept suffering there without end was so woven throughout the warp and woof of Sacred Scripture (and especially the words of our Lord) as to be impossible to regard their denials of same as being what the Bible itself must be teaching. In this case I yielded to their false comfort that "it really isn't happening" because I found it unpleasant to believe exactly as Charles Russell had, but without such a motivation to believe their position, the Scriptural reasons adduced to "prove" it are really quite inadequate to the task. So, what were those Scriptural reasons?
There really are only two passages of Sacred Scripture that lend themselves directly to a denial that the damned can suffer any torment: Psalm 145:4 (146:4 in most contemporary Bibles) which reads "His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish," and Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 which reads "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun." In their book, after introducing these two Scriptures and surrounding them with a sea of legerdemain about the soul being nothing more than the body and the spirit being nothing more than something like electricity, they proceed in earnest to explain away Hell as mentioned in Sacred Scripture.
Of course, there are exceptions to such a teaching as these two Scriptures would seem to be saying, certain other Scriptures that indicate the contrary. What was Charles Russell, or the Watchtower Society today, to do about them? One stratagem would be to treat each such Scripture that disagrees with their interpretation as though it were some single, isolated exception, the only reason that might cast doubt on their interpretation, but which is outvoted by the two Scriptures given above (and the many chapters of legerdemain) and therefore eliminated as any cause to question their doctrine. Then one just ignores the cuмulative effect of the Scriptures that so indicate the wrongness of their position, so as to conceal how they would in fact be significantly "outvoted" by what is in fact quite a lengthy list of Scriptures. The reader, in reading along, might then just follow along, whatever doubts they might have from this cuмulative effect being altogether unarticulated and unaddressed.
In one chapter, they ask, Is Hell Hot? After all, Sacred Scripture mentions Hell quite a number of times (using the Hebrew word Sheol (??????) and the Greek word Hades (????), which do seem to be at least roughly equivalent), and although some saintly Patriarchs mention going there (actually to the Limbo of the Fathers), most descriptions of it don't sound very pleasant. But no, "the dead are unconscious" they chant, again and again trying to convince themselves, and what's more, the patriarch Jacob once mentioned going there (Genesis 37:35). Well OK, that's one, and for the bit about Patriarch Jacob going there, as we Catholics know, there did exist the Limbo of the Fathers.
Having "answered" that objection, the next chapter addresses another question that comes up. What about the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)? For the Bible mentions the Rich Man (tradition gives him the name of Dives), and that "the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame." All the Watchtower writers can do with this is claim that it is "only" a parable, an illustration used to make some point, but in no way meant to be an actual occurrence.
Well, not so OK, but admittedly if this had been the only Scriptural reason to believe in a burning Hell, and especially if there were substantive other reasons to believe that Sacred Scripture denies the existence of any Hellfire, well maybe, just barely possibly, perhaps. And once again they chant to themselves "the dead are unconscious." But of course they still have not answered why our Lord would have used such a graphic image unless His audience would have already believed in such a thing, or else that He intended to convey the impression that such a thing exists.
But their troubles are not as yet done, for yet another chapter is needed to address yet another question: What about the fires of Hell spoken of for those damned, this time based on the Greek word Gehenna (??????)? Well, Gehenna was named after a garbage dump just outside Jerusalem where all their garbage was gathered and burned. But even so those who do wrong and are condemned by God are cast into it alive, never to come out. Yet another chanting of "the dead are unconscious" covers this, though the use of that Scriptural statement as a refutation must already be beginning to wear a bit thin by now. And yet still, there is more.
What about this next exception to their doctrine? One can almost see the beads of sweat on the brows of the writers of the Watchtower book as they feel forced to allocate still another chapter to address yet one more "fire and brimstone" Scriptural passage. The next chapter is introduced with "How would you react if, now that you know what the Bible says about the unconscious condition of the dead, you were to find a Bible text mentioning a place of torment? Would you reason that this justifies ignoring all the other scriptures and holding on to the idea that there may still be a possibility of conscious existence continuing after death? Or, would you undertake a careful examination of the context to determine just what the text might really mean and how it harmonizes with the rest of the Bible?"
Well excuse me, but what "rest of the Bible"? All those passages that mention Hell (Sheol/Hades) and the rich man therein? Oops, can't use those! All those passages that mention the Hell (Gehenna) of fire for the damned? Oops, can't use those! Then maybe Psalm 145:4 (or 146:4, depending on which Bible you use) and Ecclesiastes 9:5-6? But both of these Scriptures are in the Old Testament Poetical books, which could more reflect the mood of the writer than any attempt to expound a doctrine. And the Psalm states that the man's thoughts (plans, designs, schemes, ambitions) have all come to a final end when he dies. But does that actually mean that he himself also comes to a final end, ceasing to exist? And the Church is not unaware of Ecclesiastes, since a footnote to this passage in the Douay Bible reads: "Chap. 9. Ver. 5. Know nothing more. Viz., as to the transactions of this world, in which they have now no part, unless it be revealed to them; neither have they any knowledge or power of doing any thing to secure their eternal state, (if they have not taken care of it in their lifetime:) nor can they now procure themselves any good, as the living always may do, by the grace of God." So even what passages the Watchtower had found useful for their claims do nevertheless admit of some other explanation and therefore can hardly be regarded as definitive as a defense of their teachings.
So, what difficult Scriptural passage is introduced with this brow sweating passage? The Apocalypse (Revelation), chapters 19 and 20 mentions a pool (or "lake") of fire and brimstone, into which the Beast and False Prophet were "cast alive into," and where they "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever," and into which "death and hell" would be cast, and which is "the second death." So by this time, their chant of "the dead are unconscious" becomes more of a scream as they can only try to stick their fingers in their ears and drown out the plain and clearly intended sense of the Scriptures. By this point the Psalm and Ecclesiastes passages must seem terminally thin as refutations of Hellfire and brimstone. Individually, any one of these painful Bible passages might have been "explained away" by resorting to the above-cited passages in Psalms and Ecclesiastes, but cuмulatively, it is quite impossible.
And the above exceptions introduced above don't even address yet further Scriptures that allude to Hell and conscious torment or confinement therein. For example, what about yet another Greek word for "the lower hell," Tartarus (????????, 2 Peter 2:4), wherein the fallen spirits are imprisoned? And what about numerous passages that mention weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, and 25:30)? And what about the worm that never dies (Mark 9:44, 9:46, 9:48)? And what about those who adored the beast and his image, and the harlot, whose "smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever" (Apocalypse 14:11, 19:3)? And we haven't even yet mentioned the fact that "Scriptures" supposedly refuted above are not mere individual passages but whole categories of Scriptures, with Sheol occurring 66 times in the Hebrew, Hades occurring 10 times in the Greek, and Gehenna also occurring 12 times in the Greek? However thin the thread of "the dead are unconscious" might well have worn with the inclusion of the pool (or "lake") of fire and brimstone, the bare bringing up of these yet further passages would have snapped it altogether, so they go completely unmentioned in their book, Is This Life All There Is? though some do get covered in other Watchtower literature, presumably to be read only once a person has swallowed and accepted the above denials.
Those Scriptures that show their teaching to be not in accord with Sacred Scripture might admittedly be of only, individually, of an "erosionary" value, but taken together they constitute a clear consensus, sufficient to show that Sacred Scripture quite pointedly does speak of a most unpleasant and eternal future for the damned, no matter what the Watchtower Society says. How far easier it is to explain the couple Scriptures that seemed to suggest that the dead might cease to exist, than it would be to explain away the many, many Scriptures that strongly indicate the contrary!
The Same Applies to Feeneyism
In Peter Dimond's Treatise, "Outside the Catholic Church There is Absolutely No Salvation," one similarly finds that there are quite a large number of objections to his denial of Baptisms of Blood and Desire (BOB and BOD) which he is forced to admit, for they are too well-known to ignore. Again, if it had only been one or two such objections they might reasonably have been explained away and rightly ignored, even where one would have to admit a certain erosionary value to them. But the number is really quite large, and not all of them can even be addressed in the Treatise, such as it is. Every one of them is a "what-about" situation that introduces yet another reason to reject the claim being made in the Treatise.
The Treatise ostensibly allocates two sections to addressing these objections, 16. Major Objections, and 17. Some Other Objections. I begin here principally with the objections addressed in Section 16, but bringing in some from Section 17 as they tie in to these.
The Council of Trent itself has always been one of the biggest punches in the stomach for those who would deny BOB and BOD, for it states in no uncertain terms:
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 4: "In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our savior. This translation however cannot, since the promulgation of gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
That is clearly meant to be an explicit reference to the laver of regeneration (water baptism, which as such must always use actual and literal water) or its desire (that inner love of God, contrition for sins, and seeking to join the Church Militant by water baptism and to be in subjection thereto on the basis of which a soul would obtain a Baptism of Blood if martyred, or a Baptism of Desire if otherwise prematurely dead for other reasons). In short, the Council Fathers were quite aware of these doctrines and concerned that they should be represented in the very text of the Council. One would think that such a statement, alone, would be enough to make anyone who denies BOB or BOD realize that in so doing they place themselves outside the Church. So the question is, what in the world did the author of the Treatise do to try to explain this definitive text away?
His first move, no doubt to try to cozy up, however briefly, to Catholics, is to use a little guilt by association, namely by pointing out the obvious that this passage of Trent provides no basis for claiming that all sorts of "Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. can be saved who don't desire water baptism." Factually true, but immaterial to the question of BOB and BOD. But there really is no way to link the Catholic doctrines of BOB and BOD with the heresy that everyone who thinks they are doing fine, by whatever religion or none at all, are therefore to be saved, or that Hell is empty, etc.
Needless to say, I am buying none of this. A valid BOD or BOB would require at least an earnest seeking after God, to do His will whatever that may be (to what extent the person knows and understands), and while there would be room for this love and seeking to be ignorant of the requirement for water baptism, this saving love and seeking absolutely cannot be the leastways opposed to one's getting baptized under any circuмstances. One might as well say that because we say that the Church has permitted husbands and wives to come together physically so as to make children we are thereby saying that the Church condones fornication, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, masturbation, and every other unnatural perversion imaginable, or unimaginable. So don't give me any of this "99% of those who quote this passage reject even what they claim it is teaching." I don't care what "99%" do, only what Catholics do who are following the Magisterium.
His next move is to replace the phrase "except through" with "without." ("This translation however cannot … be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire…"). Like that makes the slightest bit of difference (it makes none). One needs "the laver of regeneration or its desire" in order to be justified. Without that they cannot be justified, so they cannot be justified except through that. I must confess I don't know what the author of the Treatise was intending to do with this supposed difference, since instead of explaining what relevance it could have he instead launches directly into his next move.
Much is made of the point that John 3:5 is to be read "as it is written." He has turned what is obviously nothing more than a Scriptural reference into some way he is claiming the Scripture is supposed to be read. But this passage of the Council of Trent is making no such demand. However other Papal declarations do make it clear that the passage is to be taken "as written," which is to say that the Sacrament of Baptism can only be performed using actual water. But in point of fact, all Scripture is to be taken "as written," for Scripture is inerrant (infallible). The Church therefore is mandating no special "way" of reading John 3:5 that does not equally apply to all other Scriptures, only pointing out that this reading applies to this Scripture as well (this being placed in the Council of Trent to address certain heresies present then that denied it).
So go ahead and read John 3:5 exactly "as written," and then having done that, read John 6:53 the same way (actually receiving the Eucharist is fully and exactly as required as actually being baptized in water), Matthew 10:32 (whoever professes Christ before Man, Christ shall profess before the Father, with no requirement that he be baptized in water), and Matthew 16:25 (whoever loses his life for Christ's sake shall find it, with no requirement that he be baptized in water). All of these Scriptures are equally meant to be read exactly "as written," and they are neither in conflict with each other nor with any particle of Catholic doctrine. Every heresy is born of someone taking some isolated Scripture out of context, lifting it up to the status of some "absolute" against which nothing, even other Scriptures with other things to say about the topic, can even be taken into account. Recall how the Watchtower Society similarly attempts to give Ecclesiastes 9:5 a similar status as against numerous Scriptures that indicate an afterlife for all (including an unpleasant one for the wicked).
The next move is to attempt to redefine the "or" to an "and." ("This translation however cannot … be except through the laver of regeneration or its desire…"). His first illustration is not at all helpful to his cause: "This shower cannot take place without water or the desire for one." A shower can perfectly well take place without a person's desire for one, as anyone who has ever been caught out in the rain can readily attest. And for that matter, in a complete absence of water, the desire for a shower can easily be met by using other cleansing agents (such as those "handy-wipes"). Therefore, one does not need both water and the desire for a shower to get clean. His second illustration seems closer to his purposes since indeed, "There cannot be a wedding without a bride or a groom." But in this case the proper wording would be "There cannot be a wedding without a bride and a groom," or "There cannot be a wedding without a bride or without a groom." The illustrations featured in the Treatise from Papal declarations similarly do nothing to advance his cause:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews [aut] or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life…
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Introduction: "… strictly forbidding that anyone henceforth may presume to believe, preach or teach, otherwise than is defined and declared by this present decree."
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Sess. 21, Chap. 2: "Therefore holy mother Church… has decreed that it be considered as a law, which may not be repudiated or be changed at will without the authority of the Church."
The author of the Treatise would actually seem to be recommending replacing the "or" within each of the above three quotes (as well as in the one he objects to) with an "and." Let's see what would happen if this substitution were to be made. In the first quote it would now be saying that a person would have to be (simultaneously) a pagan, a Jew, a heretic, and a schismatic in order to be someone who "cannot share in eternal life." I'd like to see how anyone but a theological contortionist would be able to manage that! With the second quote, it would evidently be OK to do any one or two of "believe, preach or teach" otherwise, so long as you didn't do all three ("believe, preach and teach" otherwise). With the case of the third quote it would have to be OK to either change or repudiate the law as long as you didn't do both. Can there be any real question as to why the standard translations of these papal declarations have always used the word "or"? Any single one of the alternatives listed with the "or" alone is enough to be what is being spoken of, and similarly the laver of regeneration or its desire is enough to achieve justification.
In pages 281-282, the Treatise mentions that Fr. Feeney (in obvious agreement with the Council of Trent) had to accept that those with a desire to be baptized (and presumably all that that would imply) could also be justified. (Fr.'s only "out" had been the patently absurd claim that just because a person is justified, and even dies such, persevering faithfully to the end, he still would not be necessarily saved, since he wouldn't be saved if he hadn't been baptized in water.) Why would Fr. Feeney have held to such an interpretation of the Council of Trent, unless, being trained in Latin as a priest he knew how to read (and had read) in the original Latin, and with the understanding of one acquainted with the language, what it really says and means. Can the writer of the Treatise claim to be a superior Latinist to Fr. Feeney (or any other priest for that matter)? We need not wait long for the answer. The Treatise continues with "an interesting email regarding this passage of Trent."
Uncertain of what the true meaning of the Latin word "aut" means, he emailed a Latin Scholar to ask how this word should be translated, and whether it could be translated as "and" or must be translated as "or" (the nature of his question as framed made it clear to the Latin Scholar that he favored "and" over "or"). The bare fact of his having to do such a thing shows him to be no expert Latinist himself, and his attempts to pontificate upon the details of a language with which he is this unfamiliar (since he clearly does not trust any of the existing translations) can only be described as being embarrassing at best. The Latin Scholar responds:
This is not easy! It is possible to make sense of it in both ways, with aut as 'or' and as 'and'. "Aut as 'or' is more common, but here the interpretation depends on whether you think that the desire for baptism is enough on its own or whether the phrase signifies that you need the desire as well as the sacrament itself. I'll leave it to you to decide!
I wonder how many Latin Scholars he had to write to in order to get a response even this accommodating! The Scholar says that it "depends on whether you think…" and "I'll leave it to you to decide!" That hardly qualifies as a ringing endorsement of his unique translation of the passage in Trent. The very tone of this response seems to say "since you really don't care what it says I am not about to be the one to attempt to undeceive you; go ahead and believe whatever you want since nothing I say can change your mind." Even so, the "hint" is still given, "Aut as 'or' is more common." In other words, "aut" is "or," unless you really want it to be something else, and then it can be whatever you want.
In point of fact however, Trent has much more to say about BOB and BOD than merely this one single phrase. If it were only this one phrase, and if one could seriously claim that the translators of Trent (even pre-Vatican II!) are all wrong or sloppy in their Latin, only then could this point be reduced from the category of being a "smoking gun" yea verily affirmation of the Church doctrines of BOB and BOD to being merely significantly erosionary. But it is not the only mention in Trent. Let's see what else Trent has to say:
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 6: "Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing, they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism; finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God. Of this disposition it is written: He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord."
This above-quoted section is subtitled "On the Manner of Preparation," for it speaks to that period before a person, in the process of converting to the Faith and Church, actually receives the Sacrament of Baptism. It describes him as having all three Theological Virtues of faith, hope, and love, and also repentance from sin. It also affirms the Scriptural point (from Hebrews 11:6) that God rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Can we take that Scripture "as written" (as the author of the Treatise loves to harp) or is this Scriptural passage mere flower-talk? Is God supposed to "reward" the catechumen who dies as such (whether as martyrdom or other death), who has manifested faith in what he has heard from the Church, hope in his salvation, and love for the God of all true justice, and who has contrition for his sins, by throwing him into fires of Hell for the "heinous crime" of not having as yet been baptized in water? The Council continues, thus:
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 7: "This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. The causes of this justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified; finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one's disposition and cooperation. For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity."
In this section, the Council of Trent associates the reception of justification not with water baptism itself necessarily, but with that "voluntary reception of the grace and gifts" which normally would indeed be water baptism. The use of this more general phrase is an allowance for the possibility that it might alternatively occur through the instrumentality of a Baptism of Blood or of Desire, so long as the person is voluntarily willing to receive the grace and gifts himself, or his life is sacrificed for them.
This is shown again later in this quote in that it is "faith" and not the "sacrament of baptism," without which no man was ever justified. For if no man could be justified without receiving the sacrament of baptism himself personally, then this passage should have mentioned it so, saying something like "the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without either of which no man was ever justified. It is faith that most counts here, and the previous section regarding preparation for baptism shows that even the new catechumen is believed by the Church to have faith. He also has hope and love, which shows in those cases of the infusion of the gift of the Holy Ghost operative in a soul even before water baptism. And yet even here the Council of Trent is not through speaking of this subject:
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Canon 9: "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema."
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Canon 4 (Canons on the Sacraments in General): If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema."
In the first of these two quotes, though the Protestant notion of salvation by "faith alone" is explicitly condemned, but notice that it does not recommend faith plus water baptism to be saved, but rather faith plus a disposition to cooperate with grace (which disposition would bring one to water baptism in the ordinary course of things).
The second quote mentions again the "desire for" the sacraments (including baptism) as did the other quote, and once again all translators have used the word "or" where (no doubt) the Treatise would have us read "and." It is quite obviously building on the theme of the earlier statement that "This translation however cannot … be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire…," and again reiterating the Trent Father's teaching that the Sacraments, or desire for same (where legitimately not possible or available) are each necessary and sufficient.
This link is conspicuously ignored in some five pages full of various sorts of legerdemain to try to explain it away and reduce its meaning to a nullity. Indeed, the Treatise separates the discussion of this passage by removing it to the next section, as though it were to be treated as something different and separate, thus showing an attempt to diminish the cuмulative effect of the two passages from Trent. Interestingly the Treatise in this case does not even attempt to push the unique translation of the Latin on the reader, but instead takes the tack of pretending that the Council of Trent sought only to condemn error instead of also teaching truth.
The question is put forth as to why the Council would stress repeatedly that such desire for Penance would substitute for the Sacrament where it isn't available, the same isn't done for Baptism? But the answer is perfectly trivial and unremarkable for all that. The Council was specifically addressed to the various Protestant heresies being circulated at that time. The Council Fathers could only address the things actually heard, or reasonably predicted by them, which latter category leaves much room for Protestants to cook up many absurd and heretical claims in the long years after Trent closed, and which Trent itself would therefore have failed to address to such a degree.
Even so, justification by the desire for baptism is mentioned in the above quoted passages. These mentionings may have been rather glancing, but there is no room to doubt that the Trent Fathers believed and taught Baptism of Blood and Desire. All the "spin" in the world is not going to completely eliminate the plain sense of the text, which is precisely why these objections from the Council of Trent are raised again and again against the denials of BOB and BOD. The attempts to explain away these passages from the Council of Trent, as contained in the Treatise, are frankly creative, but have no sound basis in any valid textual hermeneutic. They are exactly on the level of the Watchtower's attempt to explain away the Rich Man suffering in Hades as a mere parable. If such a reading were actually meant to be what was being said at Trent, where are the theological commentators regarding the Council of Trent who favor such interpretations? Surely, there would have to have been at least a few, or at least one, prior to the rise of this anti-BOB and anti-BOD error/heresy of the mid-twentieth Century! But no such commentators can be found, clear up until the Treatise itself, since even Fr. Feeney himself never subscribed to them.
Let's look at how known and established theologians read this passage from the Council of Trent (these are three of Fr. Anthony Cekada's famous "25 theologians"):
Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, pages 356 and 357, under the subheading "2. Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism": "The council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not possible 'without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the same' (sine lavacro regenerationis aut cius voto). D 796. Cf. D 847, 388, 413."
The Right Reverend Monsignor Joseph Pohle, Phd., D. D., The Sacraments - A Dogmatic Treatise, pages243-244, Thesis II: In adults the place of Baptism by water can be supplied in case of urgent necessity by the so-called Baptism of desire.: "This proposition may be qualified as 'doctrina catholica.' Proof. The Baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) differs from the Baptism of water (baptismus fluminis) in the same way in which spiritual differs from actual Communion. If the desire for Baptism is accompanied by perfect contrition, we have the so-called baptismus flaminis, which forthwith justifies the sinner, provided, of course, that the desire is a true votum sacramenti, i. e. that it implies a firm resolve to receive the Sacrament as soon as opportunity offers. The Tridentine Council pronounces anathema against those who assert 'that the Sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but superfluous, and that without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain God through faith alone the grace of justification.'"
Ad. Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, pages 228-229, under the subheading "2° baptism of desire or of perfect charity": 1021 Thesis: Contrition or perfect charity, along with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies for the forces of Baptism of water as to remission of sins. This is certain… Proof of Thesis from Tradition. The Council of Trent has summarized this in these words: 'Since the promulgation of the Gospel (the translation to the state of grace) cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or a desire for this'."
It should be obvious that each of these theologians thought that these passages in Trent declare in no uncertain terms that the laver of regeneration (water Baptism) or a desire for same was enough to effect justification. The author of the Treatise seems to think that he has some "inside track" on the true (but long hidden) meaning of the Council of Trent. Now, let's look at one such creative attempt at how the Treatise would have us misread the text:
Consider the following canon that I have made up: "If anyone says that the Virgin Mary possesses the Queenship of Heaven without God's permission or her being worthy of it, but assumes this Queenship by usurpation alone, let him be anathema."
This kind of "illustration" is useless, no better than (and in fact not as good as) this one I just made up in response:
If you think I am going to permit you to cross this bridge without riding in a car, or at least a bicycle, you got another thing coming.
Even less is to be gained from the attempt to parallel the following three quotes:
Pope Pius IV, "Iniunctum nobis," Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: "I also profess that there are truly and properly seven sacraments of the New Law instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, although all are not necessary for each individual…"
Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Sess. 2, Profession of Faith, ex cathedra: "I profess also that there are seven sacraments of the new law, truly and properly so called, instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ and necessary for salvation, though each person need not receive them all."
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 7, Can. 4, On the Sacraments in General, ex cathedra: "If anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that people obtain the grace of justification from God without them or a desire for them, by faith alone, though all are not necessary for each individual: let him be anathema."
The failure of the first two of these quotes to mention "a desire for them" is a damning indictment of the claims made in the Treatise that both the laver of regeneration AND the desire thereof are necessary for justification (or eventual salvation), for something of that scale of importance would apply to all persons, and to leave out a thing like that would be like forgetting to tell people that they should get baptized. On the other hand, if either the laver of regeneration OR the desire thereof alone is what is necessary for justification (or eventual salvation), then the omission of that rather rare and minor exception ("the desire thereof") fits right in with the general policy that applies to virtually all of us virtually all the time. In short, such a reading of Trent is unprecedented, unwarranted, and unreasonable.
One more theological "opinion" is of relevance here, and I have saved this best for last, and that is what the Council Fathers from Trent believed, in more detail than that presented at the Council itself. I refer here to their beliefs as taught within the Catechism of the Council of Trent:
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Ordinarily They Are Not Baptized At Once, p. 179: "On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."
With this, the men delegated by the Council of Trent to prepare this Catechism expressed a clear and explicit belief that "their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." As a result of this belief (obviously much more widely held than within the Council Fathers, or even the preparers of the Catechism), the Church has typically allowed baptism (for adults) to be deferred for a time, while instruction and preparation take place and the candidates are given a chance to prove themselves. The Church has always historically done this because this "delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants," who, unlike adults, would indeed require water baptism to be saved.
The paragraph therefore shows more than merely that the Council Fathers of Trent believed in BOB and BOD, it also points to a long-held practice throughout the Church that again reflects that exact same belief. This aspect of this quote, though the words of the quote themselves are given, is altogether ignored as the Treatise rapidly launches into an attempt to discredit the Catechism of the Council of Trent as an authoritative source of doctrine. Now let's look at that attempt. The Treatise gives the following quote (extracted from the preface of the Catechism) as shown here:
Catechism of the Council of Trent- Fifteenth printing, TAN Books, Introduction XXXVI: "Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide."
So, as the Treatise would have us believe, the Roman Catechism (Catechism of the Council of Trent) is merely some "fallible" docuмent, certainly not "de fide," and as such can be dismissed without further comment (though comment is provided which we will get to presently). But as has taken place before, this quote carefully subtracts out some other material from the immediate context that shows that such a reduction of its reliability is not at all called for. If anything, it almost says the opposite:
Catechism of the Council of Trent- Fifteenth printing, TAN Books, Introduction XXXVI: "Doctor John Hagan, the present Rector of the Irish College in Rome, writes thus: 'The Roman Catechism is a work of exceptional authority. At the very least it has the same authority as a dogmatic encyclical, - it is an authoritative exposition of Catholic doctrine given forth, and guaranteed to be orthodox by the Catholic Church and her supreme head on earth. The compilation of it was the work of various individuals; but the result of their combined labors was accepted by the Church as a precious abridgment of dogmatic and moral theology. Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide'."
Given that it is now clear that the authority of the Catechism is at least on par with any dogmatic Papal encyclical, what does this quote show it to mean by saying that it is "not infallible," but only someplace between that of approved catechisms and that which is de fide? The quote also explains that.
The Catechism is an abridgement of all of dogmatic and moral theology. By the very nature of the thing, an abridgement means that much information has to be left out for sheer lack of space, and so therefore the treatment of some topics may be somewhat simplified. Such a simplification even shows itself regarding the topic of this series, in that the ability of the right dispositions for preparation for water baptism to save in the event of unforeseen death, have not been broken out into the long-established distinction between BOB and BOD. Not that the Catechism would actually contain anything that is incorrect, but given its limited size it obviously must pass over much knowledge in silence.
After this quote, the Treatise makes one other attempt to sell the idea that the Catechism is fallible and unreliable before taking the rather odd step (given these attempts to impeach the Catechism as a doctrinal source) of citing it as an authority. The quote given merely shows yet another example of the sort of thing that can occur from this abridgement that is taking place, and the "error" is explained away rather readily (though slightly incorrectly) within the Treatise itself:
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Tan Books, p. 243: "For the Eucharist is the end of all the Sacraments, and the symbol of unity and brotherhood in the Church, outside of which none can attain grace."
Since it is a matter of doctrine that actual graces can and do occur outside the Church, presumably this passage of the Catechism is meant to refer to sanctifying Grace which only comes from inside the Church (even where it may extend to some catechumen who is as yet outside the Church). But then comes the claim that it is all God's fault:
Nevertheless, God allowed the Catechism to err in this manner because it is not infallible in everything it teaches.
Dove-tailing into Predestination Heresy
This opens up an issue about a far more serious error, but more will be said about this error later. Another error invariably introduced by those who deny BOB and BOD is the absurd claim that Providence somehow always manages to arrange for any true and sincere soul to be baptized in water, and that even the saints recognized by the Church has having not been baptized had in fact been baptized secretly. The argument is made that God, in His Providence, could easily arrange for matters to work out this way so that, in case someone really doesn't get baptized in water, well that's because God already knew that their conversion and repentance and so forth was only a sham.
The point is made (with Papal quotes, but I won't bother repeating them here) that God knows the end from the beginning, nothing escapes His notice, that all proceeds in accord with His greatest Will, and so forth, and then also the fact that God does not command the impossible. These points themselves are quite true of course. One does not obtain from them however the least reason to believe that God will always ensure an opportunity for water baptism to each and every soul. In not commanding the impossible, God may either provide for a miraculous baptism (as has occurred on rare occasions in the lives of certain saints), or else He may provide a BOB or BOD. Certainly His choice whether to do one or the other in this or that particular case is up to Him, not to Brothers Dimond or like-minded individuals.
One searches in vain however for even the faintest hint that the Church has ever believed that such Providential Baptisms have been always occurring. No one, until the rise of Fr. Feeney, has ever claimed such a thing before, absolutely no one! Surely if such a thing were believed by the Church, at least some text would give it, don't you think? The question about those who lack significant opportunities for joining the Church actually comes up rather often, and in all those times this sort of answer is never given? An unbaptized person dies and never does the Church attempt to console their bereaved with such words as "Well, maybe he was secretly baptized," or "Well, obviously God knew that he was of bad will, no matter how well he fooled us." Quite remarkable, or else the more obvious is true that some few not baptized with water may nevertheless attain salvation through BOB or BOD.
Having thus attempted to impeach the Catechism as a doctrinal source, the Treatise nevertheless goes on to quote it as an authority with the following quotes:
Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism - Dispositions for Baptism, p. 180: "INTENTION - ... In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it…"
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Comparisons among the Sacraments, p. 154: "Though all the Sacraments possess a divine and admirable efficacy, it is well worthy of special remark that all are not of equal necessity or of equal dignity, nor is the signification of all the same. "Among them three are said to be necessary beyond the rest, although in all three this necessity is not of the same kind. The universal and absolute necessity of Baptism our Savior has declared in these words: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5)."
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Definition of Baptism, p. 163: "Unless, says our Lord, a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5); and, speaking of the Church, the Apostle says, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life (Eph. 5:26). Thus it follows that Baptism may be rightly and accurately defined: The Sacrament of regeneration by water in the word."
Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism - Necessity of Baptism, pp. 176-177: "If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that the Law of Baptism, as established by our Lord, extends to all, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction. Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5)."
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ's Resurrection, p. 171: "Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved."
Catechism of the Council of Trent, In Case of Necessity Adults May Be Baptized At Once, p. 180: "Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptized is well instructed in the mysteries of faith."
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: "Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation."
The first quote is the procedure the Church uses in preparing a baptismal candidate, for even baptism by the Church of someone not wanting it would be no better for that person than a valid baptism provided by some heretical sect. The next two of these above quotes only mention baptism, and do not specify the Sacrament of Baptism in water. The next two quotes mention the "Law of Baptism," which is the New Covenant (replacing the Law of Circuмcision), but as applies here to this question is simply the law that we must seek water baptism earnestly. It is purely up to God whether He chooses to allow us the opportunity to consummate that desire with an actual water baptism, or if He chooses to apply its graces though other means (BOB and BOD) where such opportunity is not to be provided. The last two quotes show why actual instances of a BOD (or even a BOB) would be quite rare in the ordinary manner of things since indeed water is so often readily available (could still be different in a desert or a prison cell!), and that specific provision is made for cases where there is reason to believe that a person might not survive to the usual, scheduled time for their Baptism to take place (commonly in Easter).
One other (much more minor) objection noted from the Catechism is the remarkable parallel between just exactly the sorts of quotes used in the Treatise to claim that water baptism is absolutely necessary under all conditions, to the similarity of such quotes that speak of the necessity of the Sacrament of Penance. The difference here is that the Sacrament of Penance, being described in far more detail (to an increasingly Protestant world that altogether denies the whole Sacrament of Penance where they did at least more or less retain the Sacrament of Baptism), has the exception explained in more detail regarding those unable to obtain the sacrament, and how they might still have access to the graces. Again, let's look at the quotes:
Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, canons on the Sacrament of Baptism, canon 5, ex cathedra: "If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema."
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Can. 6 on the Sacrament of Penance: "If anyone denies that sacramental confession was instituted by divine law or is necessary to salvation… let him be anathema."
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Can. 6 on the Sacrament of Penance: "6. Si quis negaverit, confessionem sacramentalem vel institutam vel ad salutem necessariam esse iure divino… a.s." This is more properly translated as it is found in Decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils by Fr. Norman Tanner: "If anyone denies that the institution of sacramental confession or its necessity for salvation are from divine law… let him be anathema."
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, On Penance: "This sacrament of Penance, moreover, is necessary for the salvation of those who have fallen after baptism, as baptism itself is necessary for those not yet regenerated."
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Chap. 4, On Penance: "The Council teaches, furthermore, that though it sometimes happens that this contrition is perfect because of charity and reconciles man to God, before this sacrament is actually received, this reconciliation must not be ascribed to the contrition itself without the desire of the sacrament which is included in it."
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 14 on Justification: "Hence it must be taught that the repentance of a Christian after his fall is very different from that at his baptism, and that it includes not only a cessation from sins… but also the sacramental confession of the same, at least in desire and to be made in its season, and sacerdotal absolution, as well as satisfaction by fasting, almsgiving, prayers, and other devout exercises of the spiritual life, not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is remitted together with the guilt either by the sacrament or the desire of the sacrament, but for the temporal punishment…"
Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Canon 29 on Justification: "If anyone says that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again; or that he can indeed recover lost justice, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church, taught by Christ the Lord and His apostles, has hitherto professed, observed, and taught: let him be anathema."
Since
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The denial of the ordinary infallible teaching of the Church on BOB/D is an over-reaction to to false ecuмenism. . .at least in some instances in my opinion.
Uhm, nobody's denying ordinary universal infallibility. We just think that your understanding of it is completely flawed. Again, please look in the mirror and recognize what hubris it is to say that we "deny" ordinary universal infallibility (it was dogmatically defined by Vatican I) when we simply understand it differently than you do.
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From Griff Ruby on Daily Catholic: ...{several-page article}
Just when I thought that you had been shamed into behaving in a more civilized fashion by my thread in General.
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I hope the feeneyites are not offended to realize that their responses are quite familiar to me as I have thoroughly studied both sides (Feeneyite/Catholic) of the issue. I only wasted my time thoroughly studying the Feeneyite side when I believed it could be Catholic.
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their responses are quite familiar to me
Except that you haven't the foggiest clue as to what they actually mean.
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I hope the feeneyites are not offended to realize that their responses are quite familiar to me as I have thoroughly studied both sides (Feeneyite/Catholic) of the issue. I only wasted my time thoroughly studying the Feeneyite side when I believed it could be Catholic.
You have exemplified your "thoroughly studied both sides" as it shines through in all your posts, especially this thread where Fr. Feeney, per The Letter, was never outside of the Church, always remained a member and died with the helps of salvation - which are only afforded to actual members of the Church.
So per your own posting of The Letter, you continually vindicate Fr. Feeney - good job!
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This letter, known as the Suprema haec sacra, from the first three words of the Latin text, is of unique importance for the study of this section of sacred theology. It is an instruction of the Holy Office, sent out with the approval and at the bidding of the Sovereign Pontiff himself. As such, it is an authoritative, though obviously not an infallible, docuмent. That is to say, the teachings contained in the Suprema haec sacra are not to be accepted as infallibly true on the authority of this particular docuмent. Nevertheless, the fact remains that much of its teaching - indeed, what we may call the substance of its teaching - is material which has appeared in previous docuмents emanating from the Sovereign Pontiff himself and from Oecuмenical Councils of the Catholic Church.
Fenton