Author Topic: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra  (Read 886 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2017, 09:08:00 AM »
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  • Do you give a true internal and sincere ascent to it?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #46 on: September 13, 2017, 09:10:53 AM »
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  • Quote
    Pope Pius XII (Oct. 29, 1951): Address to the Congress of the Italian Catholic Association of Midwives: "If what We have said up to now deals with the protection and the care of natural life, it should hold all the more in regard to the supernatural life which the newly born infant receives with Baptism. In the present economy there is no other way of communicating this life to the child who has not yet the use of reason. But, nevertheless, the state of grace at the moment of death is absolutely necessary for salvation. Without it, it is not possible to attain supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God. An act of love can suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and supply for the absence of Baptism; for the unborn child or for the newly born, this way is not open..."
    But this is nothing new.  The Feeneyites do not want to hear it but the objective observer understands it is true nonetheless.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline tornpage

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #47 on: September 13, 2017, 09:20:25 AM »
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  • True, but whether it's a fake or not (I lean towards fake) it holds no weight at all. It's not in the AAS. I see your point though.
    I tend to think the letter is genuine because of Ottaviani's association with it, and it's "weight," if any, is questionable. It is certainly not binding, and I don't think it qualifies as free from error as an expression of the Ecclesia Docens - hugger mugger doesn't exactly indicate the Church teaching, and the story behind it shows hugger mugger. 
    "Assuredly the infinite power of God is not bound by anything; all things obey it as so many passive instruments. In regard to this external principle, therefore, we must inquire which one of all the means in His power Christ did actually adopt."

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #48 on: September 13, 2017, 09:24:34 AM »
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  • "As regards the doctrinal value of Decrees of the Holy Office it should be observed that canonists distinguish two kinds of approbation of an act of an inferior by a superior: first, approbation in common form (in forma communi), as it is sometimes called, which does not take from the act its nature and quality as an act of the inferior. Thus, for example, the decrees of a provincial council, although approved by the Congregation of the Council or by the Holy See, always remain provincial conciliar decrees. Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff, that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of specific approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions are given by Choupin ("Valeur des décisions doctrinales et disciplinaires du Saint-Siège", Paris, 1907, ch. ix, sect. 9). The disciplinary Decrees of the Holy Office have the same force as those of the other congregations, that is, they are binding upon all the faithful if they be formally universal; and they are binding only upon the parties interested if they be merely personal, e.g., judicial sentences, which are law for the parties in the case. If, however, they be personal and at the same time equivalently universal, canonists are not fully agreed as to their force. For a discussion of this point see Choupin, op. cit., ch. iv, sect. 33, and the authors cited by him."

    via "newadvent.org"
    Very helpful. Thanks, DZ. 

    Nice to have something relevant to apply to these discussions. 
    "Assuredly the infinite power of God is not bound by anything; all things obey it as so many passive instruments. In regard to this external principle, therefore, we must inquire which one of all the means in His power Christ did actually adopt."

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #49 on: September 13, 2017, 09:25:05 AM »
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  • I tend to think the letter is genuine because of Ottaviani's association with it, and it's "weight," if any, is questionable. It is certainly not binding, and I don't think it qualifies as free from error as an expression of the Ecclesia Docens - hugger mugger doesn't exactly indicate the Church teaching, and the story behind it shows hugger mugger.
    From DZ PLEASE:
    Quote
    They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. 
    Do you give your true internal and sincere assent to it as all good Catholics must?  The answer would be yes or no.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Online DZ PLEASE

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #50 on: September 13, 2017, 09:58:46 AM »
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  • From DZ PLEASE:Do you give your true internal and sincere assent to it as all good Catholics must?  The answer would be yes or no.  
    Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff,

    (.^. >>>> "AAS" <<<<<) Learn to READ and/or TELL THE TRUTH DZ P)
    that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of >>>> specific <<<< approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions...

    Online DZ PLEASE

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #51 on: September 13, 2017, 10:00:14 AM »
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  • Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff,

    (.^. >>>> "AAS" <<<<<) Learn to READ and/or TELL THE TRUTH. DZ P)
    that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of >>>> specific <<<< approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions...
    For crying out loud, this platform's formatting blows chunks...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #52 on: September 13, 2017, 10:01:58 AM »
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  • Do you give a true internal and sincere ascent to it?

    No, I am required to give true and internal assent to it.

    By it I mean any act of the authentic Magisterium (from which I exclude SH).

    But, in principle, indeed, Catholics must give true and internal assent to such acts of the authentic Magisterium.

    Your problem is in misdefining what this "assent" entails.  It's RELIGIOUS assent.  Please read your hero Msgr. Fenton on the authority of Encyclicals wherein he clearly defines all these concepts.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #53 on: September 13, 2017, 11:05:47 AM »
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  • Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff,

    (.^. >>>> "AAS" <<<<<) Learn to READ and/or TELL THE TRUTH DZ P)
    that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of >>>> specific <<<< approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions...
    Answer seems more complicated than would be from a good Catholic and rather emotional.  Of course the die-hard feeneyite will not be able to answer in the affirmative regarding to a true, internal and sincere assent, but the smarter ones avoid looking more foolish with their silence.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online roscoe

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #54 on: September 13, 2017, 11:17:19 AM »
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  • Feeneyites hate official documents of the Church approved by a valid Pope.  Yuck.
    :sleep:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #55 on: September 13, 2017, 11:19:16 AM »
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  • :sleep:
    Agreed.  It is tiring.  But for the sake of those confused on the issue I will keep sharing what the Church teaches to the chagrin of the hateful and disparate Feeneyites.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Online roscoe

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #56 on: September 13, 2017, 11:33:43 AM »
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  • Agreed.  It is tiring.  But for the sake of those confused on the issue I will keep sharing what the Church teaches to the chagrin of the hateful and disparate Feeneyites.  
    Sorry but you still don't get it--- There is No Such Thing as a "Feeneyite".... :laugh1:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #57 on: September 13, 2017, 11:37:21 AM »
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  • Sorry but you still don't get it--- There is No Such Thing as a "Feeneyite".... :laugh1:
    I do get it.  A "feeneyite" is a follower of Feeney as a "sedevacantist" is one who admits a public heretic cannot be Pope.  We are all sedevacantist during and interregnum and all those who deny BOD which Saint Alphonsus called de fide are some form of a feeneyite.  
    So yes, there is such thing as a feeneyite and this is the only traditional site where the are allowed to run rampant, though in their special little hole. 
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online roscoe

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #58 on: September 13, 2017, 11:51:38 AM »
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  •  :sleep:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #59 on: September 13, 2017, 11:52:57 AM »
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  • :sleep:
    Agreed.  It is tiring.  But for the sake of those confused on the issue I will keep sharing what the Church teaches to the chagrin of the hateful and desperate Feeneyites.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

     

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