Author Topic: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra  (Read 1312 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14225
  • Reputation: +7231/-2295
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2017, 08:54:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, the incompetent and ignorant LoT claims that assent must be given to any "authoritative" document.  We've discussed this before, but the ignoramus doesn't understand the notion of "assent" to these documents, and departs from his own hero Fenton's explanation for what this means.

    There's no mortal sin (or sin at all, but rather virtue) in respectfully disagreeing with even an authoritative non-infallible document if it happens to contradict Catholic principles.  But, then, LoT claims that these are all effectively infallible.

    Problem is that, by virtue of its not having appeared in AAS, this document isn't even guaranteed "authentic" by the Church.


    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #31 on: September 13, 2017, 08:55:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Oh! how soon they forget. Fr. Feeney was making record numbers of inconvenient converts and preaching publicly against the Jews.  The eccumenist Cushing could not abide that,or Father Feeney exposing the heresy throughout the diocese which were the documented activities which prompted retaliation and suppression.

    This followed the silencing and supression of the great Father Coughlin, by the prior politically sensitive pope and using Pacelli as the instrument of that injustice. They were both afraid of the Jews.

    There were much bigger issues were at play here than liberal pet heresies. Opposition resistance were being systematically eliminated, as well as the masonic operatives at work laying the groundwork for Vatican II and the revolution.
    Feeney right.
    Augustine, Ambrose, Aquinas, Bellarmine, Innocent II, Innocent III, Alphonsus, Pius IX, Pius X, Pius XI, Pius XII wrong. :facepalm:
    Bye bye Feeneyites.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #32 on: September 13, 2017, 08:56:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Also, the incompetent and ignorant LoT claims that assent must be given to any "authoritative" document.  We've discussed this before, but the ignoramus doesn't understand the notion of "assent" to these documents, and departs from his own hero Fenton's explanation for what this means.

    There's no mortal sin (or sin at all, but rather virtue) in respectfully disagreeing with even an authoritative non-infallible document if it happens to contradict Catholic principles.  But, then, LoT claims that these are all effectively infallible.

    Problem is that, by virtue of its not having appeared in AAS, this document isn't even guaranteed "authentic" by the Church.
    Suprema haec.  LoT's fault.  Bad boy.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #33 on: September 13, 2017, 08:58:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No he didn't. Prove it.
    :facepalm:
    Again the burden of proof is being unreasonably shifted. The letter came from the Holy Office to the Abp. of Boston. It was made public in 1953 and appeared in several periodicals. It was included in Denzinger. The document says His Holiness approved the doctrine set forth therein. The Pope is the head of the Holy Office. We have met our burden of proof. If anyone believes that Pius XII did NOT approve this, the burden of proof is now on him to prove it. Not on us.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2929
    • Reputation: +736/-774
    • Gender: Male
    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #34 on: September 13, 2017, 09:04:30 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • "As regards the doctrinal value of Decrees of the Holy Office it should be observed that canonists distinguish two kinds of approbation of an act of an inferior by a superior: first, approbation in common form (in forma communi), as it is sometimes called, which does not take from the act its nature and quality as an act of the inferior. Thus, for example, the decrees of a provincial council, although approved by the Congregation of the Council or by the Holy See, always remain provincial conciliar decrees. Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff, that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of specific approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions are given by Choupin ("Valeur des décisions doctrinales et disciplinaires du Saint-Siège", Paris, 1907, ch. ix, sect. 9). The disciplinary Decrees of the Holy Office have the same force as those of the other congregations, that is, they are binding upon all the faithful if they be formally universal; and they are binding only upon the parties interested if they be merely personal, e.g., judicial sentences, which are law for the parties in the case. If, however, they be personal and at the same time equivalently universal, canonists are not fully agreed as to their force. For a discussion of this point see Choupin, op. cit., ch. iv, sect. 33, and the authors cited by him."

    via "newadvent.org"
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #35 on: September 13, 2017, 09:07:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "As regards the doctrinal value of Decrees of the Holy Office it should be observed that canonists distinguish two kinds of approbation of an act of an inferior by a superior: first, approbation in common form (in forma communi), as it is sometimes called, which does not take from the act its nature and quality as an act of the inferior. Thus, for example, the decrees of a provincial council, although approved by the Congregation of the Council or by the Holy See, always remain provincial conciliar decrees. Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff, that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of specific approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions are given by Choupin ("Valeur des décisions doctrinales et disciplinaires du Saint-Siège", Paris, 1907, ch. ix, sect. 9). The disciplinary Decrees of the Holy Office have the same force as those of the other congregations, that is, they are binding upon all the faithful if they be formally universal; and they are binding only upon the parties interested if they be merely personal, e.g., judicial sentences, which are law for the parties in the case. If, however, they be personal and at the same time equivalently universal, canonists are not fully agreed as to their force. For a discussion of this point see Choupin, op. cit., ch. iv, sect. 33, and the authors cited by him."

    via "newadvent.org"
    Good post.  Thank you.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #36 on: September 13, 2017, 09:08:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Do you give a true internal and sincere ascent to it?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #37 on: September 13, 2017, 09:10:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Pope Pius XII (Oct. 29, 1951): Address to the Congress of the Italian Catholic Association of Midwives: "If what We have said up to now deals with the protection and the care of natural life, it should hold all the more in regard to the supernatural life which the newly born infant receives with Baptism. In the present economy there is no other way of communicating this life to the child who has not yet the use of reason. But, nevertheless, the state of grace at the moment of death is absolutely necessary for salvation. Without it, it is not possible to attain supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God. An act of love can suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and supply for the absence of Baptism; for the unborn child or for the newly born, this way is not open..."
    But this is nothing new.  The Feeneyites do not want to hear it but the objective observer understands it is true nonetheless.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #38 on: September 13, 2017, 09:25:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I tend to think the letter is genuine because of Ottaviani's association with it, and it's "weight," if any, is questionable. It is certainly not binding, and I don't think it qualifies as free from error as an expression of the Ecclesia Docens - hugger mugger doesn't exactly indicate the Church teaching, and the story behind it shows hugger mugger.
    From DZ PLEASE:
    Quote
    They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. 
    Do you give your true internal and sincere assent to it as all good Catholics must?  The answer would be yes or no.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2929
    • Reputation: +736/-774
    • Gender: Male
    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #39 on: September 13, 2017, 09:58:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From DZ PLEASE:Do you give your true internal and sincere assent to it as all good Catholics must?  The answer would be yes or no.  
    Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff,

    (.^. >>>> "AAS" <<<<<) Learn to READ and/or TELL THE TRUTH DZ P)
    that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of >>>> specific <<<< approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions...
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2929
    • Reputation: +736/-774
    • Gender: Male
    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #40 on: September 13, 2017, 10:00:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff,

    (.^. >>>> "AAS" <<<<<) Learn to READ and/or TELL THE TRUTH. DZ P)
    that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of >>>> specific <<<< approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions...
    For crying out loud, this platform's formatting blows chunks...
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Online Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14225
    • Reputation: +7231/-2295
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #41 on: September 13, 2017, 10:01:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Do you give a true internal and sincere ascent to it?

    No, I am required to give true and internal assent to it.

    By it I mean any act of the authentic Magisterium (from which I exclude SH).

    But, in principle, indeed, Catholics must give true and internal assent to such acts of the authentic Magisterium.

    Your problem is in misdefining what this "assent" entails.  It's RELIGIOUS assent.  Please read your hero Msgr. Fenton on the authority of Encyclicals wherein he clearly defines all these concepts.

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #42 on: September 13, 2017, 11:05:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Secondly, specific approbation (in forma specifica), which takes from the act approved its character of an act of the inferior and makes it the act of the superior who approves it. This approbation is understood when, for example, the pope approves a Decree of the Holy Office ex certa scientia, motu proprio, or plenitudine suâ potestatis. Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith. The reason is that, although an act of this congregation, when approved by the pope specifically, becomes an act of the sovereign pontiff,

    (.^. >>>> "AAS" <<<<<) Learn to READ and/or TELL THE TRUTH DZ P)
    that act is not necessarily clothed with the infallible authority inherent in the Holy See, since the pope is free to make the act of an inferior his own without applying his pontifical prerogative to its performance. Similarly, when he acts of his own volition, he may teach ex cathedra or he may teach in a less decisive and solemn way. Examples of >>>> specific <<<< approbation of the Decrees of the Holy Office which yet lack the force of ex cathedra definitions...
    Answer seems more complicated than would be from a good Catholic and rather emotional.  Of course the die-hard feeneyite will not be able to answer in the affirmative regarding to a true, internal and sincere assent, but the smarter ones avoid looking more foolish with their silence.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6864
    • Reputation: +391/-124
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #43 on: September 13, 2017, 11:17:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Feeneyites hate official documents of the Church approved by a valid Pope.  Yuck.
    :sleep:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-822
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Holy Office Letter Suprema Haec Sacra
    « Reply #44 on: September 13, 2017, 11:19:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • :sleep:
    Agreed.  It is tiring.  But for the sake of those confused on the issue I will keep sharing what the Church teaches to the chagrin of the hateful and disparate Feeneyites.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16