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Author Topic: The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in  (Read 9271 times)

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Offline ajpirc

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The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
« on: July 01, 2011, 07:59:29 AM »
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    • As everybody knows, the Second Vatican Council was the only Ecuмenical Council in Church history that never defined dogma infallibly. Here is Pope Paul VI:

    Quote
    “There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority."


    So because the Council's words were not protected by the Holy Spirit, false doctrine, especially Modernist doctrine, can be present in the Council's docuмents.

    Lumen Gentium, a Vatican II docuмent which was promulgated by Pope Paul VI, is Vatican II's teaching on the Church. Here is a part from it that gets many traditionalists riled up:

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    This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure.


    "This Church...subsists in the Catholic Church." The Church has always taught that She is this Church.

    Pope John Paul II says this in Ut unum sint:

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    Indeed, the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities, in a degree which varies from one to the other, constitute the objective basis of the communion, albeit imperfect, which exists between them and the Catholic Church.


    According to Vatican II and Pope John Paul II, different elements of the Church also subsist in the "Christian Communities" of our "seperated bretheren". This sounds like the Protestant teaching that the Church is made up of all who believe in Christ no matter what denomination on belongs to. Hey! weren't there Protestants at Vatican II and even some on the comitees?

    My question here today is, is Lumen Gentium a heretical docuмent that Protestants and Modernists put together to bring an end to the Church?

    Thank You
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    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 08:35:01 AM »
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    • FWIW, the principal author of LG was....

    Karol Wojtyla (JP2).

    There have been volumes written about this issue, some defending it and some attacking it.

    For my part, this is a clearly radical departure from what the Church has always taught about herself.

    Pax and welcome to the site :)
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 08:38:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: ajpirc
    My question here today is, is Lumen Gentium a heretical docuмent that ... Modernists put together to bring an end to the Church?


    Yes :)

    FWIW, even if such was NOT the express goal, the results speak for themselves.
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    Offline ajpirc

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 02:50:32 PM »
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    • Could you go into detail on what is meant by this heresy? I have a clue about it, but don't completely understand.
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    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 02:52:44 PM »
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    • I'd be happy to do so, but I will not be able to do so today.  Thank you for your patience :)
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    Offline Exilenomore

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 03:07:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: ajpirc
    Could you go into detail on what is meant by this heresy? I have a clue about it, but don't completely understand.


    The pantheon of Assisi.

    It is an attempt to tear down the borders of the Church as a visible society and describe her as a 'semi-visible' entity in communion with the numerous sects of perdition in the world. This was the intention behind the deliberately ambigious language used.

    It is a very grievous error condemned by the Catholic Church. St. Paul declared that there can be no communion possible between Christ and belial, light and darkness.
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    Offline ajpirc

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #6 on: July 01, 2011, 04:22:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Exilenomore
    It is an attempt to tear down the borders of the Church as a visible society and describe her as a 'semi-visible' entity in communion with the numerous sects of perdition in the world. This was the intention behind the deliberately ambigious language used.


    Was this part of Vatican II's "ecuмenism" techniques to show Protestants that we've changed and that we believe in the "church" that they believe as a federation of Christian communities?

    This ecuмenism that we've shifted to to promote "Christian unity" is a joke. I don't think the Church should be involved with any Protestants to promote a so-called "Christian-unity". The only Christian unity is that where heretics rejoin the Church. I think that was Pope St. Pius X that said that, but I might be wrong.

    Did the Church always call Protestants heretics up until Vatican II? I know that now we call them our "seperated bretheren" but that's probably because calling someone a heretic would be politically incorrect and could hurt their feelings.
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    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline Exilenomore

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #7 on: July 01, 2011, 04:51:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: ajpirc
    Was this part of Vatican II's "ecuмenism" techniques to show Protestants that we've changed and that we believe in the "church" that they believe as a federation of Christian communities?


    If I understand Joseph Ratzinger's way of thinking correctly, he would like to have a communion between what he perceives to be the catholic Church and the numerous heretical and schismatical sects that claim to be part of Christendom, with the 'catholic part' as the head of this pseudo-communion.

    The thought alone is monstrous and foreign to apostolic tradition, because the Roman Catholic Church alone is the spotless Bride of Christ and she does not share her sacred chambers with bondwomen (the non-catholic sects).
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    Offline the smart sheep

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #8 on: July 01, 2011, 07:40:45 PM »
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    • Good topic ajpirc. I'll be tuning in for answers to your questions.

    My No friends who praise LG also use this "unity" word often. A connection I just thought of.

    the smart sheep
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    Offline ajpirc

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 02:19:26 PM »
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    • Does anybody know of any docuмents that explain the Church's view toward Catholic interaction with heretics, I mean "seperated bretheren"?

    I know the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X tells us what we should have done when a Protestant hands us a Bible:

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    32 Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.


    Now-a-days, the Church probably encourages us to read the King James Version to show Protestants that we respect their religion.

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    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 02:31:36 PM »
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    • It might help to read Mortalium animos...

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM
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    Offline JPaul

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #11 on: July 04, 2011, 08:45:08 AM »
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    • Quote
    Does anybody know of any docuмents that explain the Church's view toward Catholic interaction with heretics, I mean "seperated bretheren"?



    On the Unity of the Church, which defines the true concept of unity as held by the Catholic Church.  This encyclical is most effective in condemning the foul concepts contained in this blashpemous docuмent.  There are no separated brethren, there is no partial or imperfect communion with the Church, there are no ecclessial communities, there are only the one true Church and sects and pagans.  One is in the Church, or one is out. The fact that such false and scurrulous assertions could be made in the so called council, easily proves its deficiency and un-Catholic nature.


    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13satis.htm
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    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #12 on: July 04, 2011, 09:05:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    It might help to read Mortalium animos...

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM


    +a million

    Can everyone please read this if you haven't ? And even if you have, read it again to understand why "Un1tY" as proclaimed by modernists is never going to work in the Kingdom of God.
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    Offline ajpirc

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 09:53:54 AM »
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    • Thank you for the help!!

    I hear many people say that subsistit in in Lumen Gentium wasn't intentional. Is this true?
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    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline ajpirc

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    The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
    « Reply #14 on: July 06, 2011, 12:31:31 PM »
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    • Were there any Protestants that were involved in writing Lumen Gentium? I know there were many Protestants at the Second Vatican Council.  I think there were 6 of "seperated bretheren" Novus Ordo with Fr. Bugnini.
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    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev
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