Author Topic: The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in (Read 30092 times)

LordPhan · « **Reply #45 on:** July 09, 2011, 06:39:56 PM »

Quote from: ajpirc

Quote from: trad123
No, it's a novelty, it's to be rejected.

So would you agree with what was stated earlier that those who are baptized, enter the Catholic Church, but once they accept heresy they leave?

Also, do you know of a past catechism that is contradicted by the new one, specifically on this topic?

The Catechism of Trent is THE Catechism. I have not read the new one, but this is the one that matters.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tindex.htm

ajpirc · « **Reply #46 on:** July 09, 2011, 06:53:49 PM »

This was what I found who is in the Church and who isn't:

Quote

The Members Of The Church Militant

The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality.

The good are those who are linked together not only by the profession of the same faith, and the participation of the same Sacraments, but also by the spirit of grace and the bond of charity. Of these St. Paul says: The Lord knoweth who are his. Who they are that compose this class we also may remotely conjecture, but we can by no means pronounce with certainty. Hence Christ the Saviour does not speak of this portion of His Church when He refers us to the Church and commands us to hear and to obey her. As this part of the Church is unknown, how could we ascertain with certainty whose decision to recur to, whose authority to obey?

The Church, therefore, as the Scriptures and the writings of the Saints testify, includes within her fold the good and the bad; and it was in this sense that St. Paul spoke of one body and one spirit. Thus understood, the Church is known and is compared to a city built on a mountain, and visible from every side. As all must yield obedience to her authority, it is necessary that she may?be known by all.

That the Church is composed of the good and the bad we learn from many parables contained in the Gospel. Thus, the kingdom of heaven, that is, the Church militant, is compared to a net cast into the sea, to a field in which tares were sown with the good grain, to a threshing floor on which the grain is mixed up with the chaff, and also to ten virgins, some of whom were wise, and some foolish. And long before, we trace a figure and resemblance of this Church in the ark of Noah, which contained not only clean, but also unclean animals.

But although the Catholic faith uniformly and truly teaches that the good and the bad belong to the Church, yet the same faith declares that the condition of both is very different. The wicked are contained in the Church, as the chaff is mingled with the grain on the threshing floor, or as dead members sometimes remain attached to a living body.

Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power.

ajpirc · « **Reply #47 on:** July 09, 2011, 07:06:53 PM »

Here is one that confuses me though:

Quote

Among these figures the ark of Noah holds a conspicuous place. It was built by the command of God, in order that there might be no doubt that it was a symbol of the Church, which God has so constituted that all who enter therein through Baptism, may be safe from danger of eternal death, while such as are outside the Church, like those who were not in the ark, are overwhelmed by their own crimes.

It says that they enter the Church through Baptism. How does someone leave the Church because you can't be "unbaptized?" If one wants to re-enter the Church, how can they if baptism is the door into the Church? We can't be re-baptized either. I don't understand this.

ajpirc · « **Reply #48 on:** July 09, 2011, 08:58:40 PM »

I always talk about those neo-Catholics from CAF here on CathInfo and I'm going to talk a little bit more about them in this next post. I actually got suspended for two weeks for apparently telling Catholics to avoid reading the new Catechism of the Catholic Church. But anyway, they always talk about how our Protestant "seperated bretheren" aren't heretics because they were born into heretical communities through no fault of their own without knowing and doubting the true Faith. I had always believed them. Why do traditionals call those Protestants heretics if they were born into these communities?

Daegus · « **Reply #49 on:** July 09, 2011, 09:11:44 PM »

Quote from: ajpirc

I always talk about those neo-Catholics from CAF here on CathInfo and I'm going to talk a little bit more about them in this next post. I actually got suspended for two weeks for apparently telling Catholics to avoid reading the new Catechism of the Catholic Church. But anyway, they always talk about how our Protestant "seperated bretheren" aren't heretics because they were born into heretical communities through no fault of their own without knowing and doubting the true Faith. I had always believed them. Why do traditionals call those Protestants heretics if they were born into these communities?

Good question. I'd also like to know what we're supposed to call the Mohammedans and the Jews and so on if we can't call them heretics (because they're not Christian and don't pretend to be), schismatics (because they were never part of the Church to separate) or apostates (because they couldn't have left a faith that they never had).

Calling them Satan worshipers isn't always accurate either. Some of them do appear to be worshiping something that is clearly not God, but the conventional wisdom says otherwise so... :reading: