Thank you, J.Paul

One can be part of the Church by desire, but one must do everything possible to enter into her external communion. Leonard Feeney erred when he attempted to make God a prisoner of His own sacraments, and therefore his errors were condemned by the infallible Apostolic See. He started out by opposing the errors of universalism which later became accepted by 'Vatican II'. And those errors must indeed be opposed. But he went too far when he started to reject baptism of desire, which is a true teaching of the Church.

Could you clarify?

In the time before Vatican II, the libertine forces were already infiltrating to unhinge catholic sense in the minds of unwary people. One of their objectives was to get people to believe that baptism is not necessary to be saved. That they should just utter a simple, protestant 'be saved' prayer and leave it at that. These injurious errors must absolutely be rejected and opposed by faithful catholics, but Leonard Feeney strayed into the other extreme with his rigid proposition that even those who desire to receive baptism, but are struck with unforeseen death before receiving it, are not saved, despite having had perfect charity and contrition for sin.

While it is of absolute necessity not to be lax in receiving the sacraments, one must not consider in hell those who were by an unforeseen death prevented from receiving water baptism. Otherwise pastors would not wait so long in order to instruct adults before they can receive baptism.

There are no separated brethren, there is no partial or imperfect communion with the Church, there are no ecclessial communities, there are only the one true Church and sects and pagans.  One is in the Church, or one is out.

Those on CAF always talk about Protestants being in the Church because of their baptism. I know, from what we've been talking about, that one who is baptized is in the Catholic Church until he professes heresy, then he is not in the Church anymore.

I think that those who accept Vatican II believe that the Church is not only the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church but also the invisible of all who have been baptized (by water or desire/ignorance) this puts everyone into the Church (universal salvation)! J.Paul, you mention that one is in the Church, or one is out. Who are those that are in the Church? I know we've talked about this but I've been brainwashed about what they called "Catholic dogma."

Quote from: ajpirc

Quote from: J.Paul

There are no separated brethren, there is no partial or imperfect communion with the Church, there are no ecclessial communities, there are only the one true Church and sects and pagans.  One is in the Church, or one is out.

Those on CAF always talk about Protestants being in the Church because of their baptism. I know, from what we've been talking about, that one who is baptized is in the Catholic Church until he professes heresy, then he is not in the Church anymore.

I think that those who accept Vatican II believe that the Church is not only the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church but also the invisible of all who have been baptized (by water or desire/ignorance) this puts everyone into the Church (universal salvation)! J.Paul, you mention that one is in the Church, or one is out. Who are those that are in the Church? I know we've talked about this but I've been brainwashed about what they called "Catholic dogma."

Baptized Catholics who hold the Faith of Christ are members of the body of Christ(The Church).  Protestants, Orthodox,Jєωs, Muslims, Pagans and all others are in no way connected to the Church.  The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan. If you are not in the former, then by default you are in the latter.

Most who believe the liberalized view of Vatican II have been indoctrinated,corrupted or misled by those in authority over the last fifty years.
There is no dogmatic teaching in VaticanII, save those excerpts which they repeat from earlier times. It can, and should be wholly ignored.   All of those who think that almost anyone is in the Church and hence are saved will have a rude awakening when they come before the Just Judge.  

Would this correspond with Feeney's view that only Catholics are saved?

Quote from: ajpirc

Those on CAF always talk about Protestants being in the Church because of their baptism. I know, from what we've been talking about, that one who is baptized is in the Catholic Church until he professes heresy, then he is not in the Church anymore.

Let me quote a post-Vatican II catechism.

The Catholic Catechism: A Contemporary Catechism of the Teachings of the Catholic Church by John A. Hardon, S. J., pgs. 509-510.

Quote

Incorporation into Christ. Through baptism we become united to Christ as head of the Mystical Body. This is the dominant theme of the Pauline letters, which remind the faithful of their organic union with Christ in the one body, which is the Church, and of which they are truly members, comparable to the limbs of a human body, whose direction depends on the head and whose animation derives from the same soul.

This is also thematic in the new baptismal liturgy, which reminds parents, godparents, and the neophytes (or children) that through baptism we are incorporated twice over, once into Christ and once again into his Church, although both are really two aspects of the same incorporation. He has identified himself with the body, which is the Church so that in becoming members of the latter we are joined with him in that mystical union of which the baptismal character is the indelible sign.

It is here, too, that the ecuмenical movement finds its most solid doctrinal foundation. Catholics can now affirm with full security that they are closely joined "with those who are baptized and have the honor of the name Christian, yet do not profess the faith in its entirety." Why so? Because they are "marked by baptism and thereby joined to Christ." Because, since they are incorporated into Christ, they have "a real union in the Holy Spirit, for he is at work among them too with the power of sanctification in gifts and graces; he has given some of them strength to the extent of shedding their blood." Consequently, it is the same Spirit of Christ, dwelling in the hearts of all Christians, in those who profess Roman Catholicism and in those who do not. He is "rousing in all Christ's disciples desire and action, in the hope that all men may be united peacefully, in the manner that Christ appointed, in one flock under one shepherd."

There is an ecuмenical movement in Christendom today only because one and the same Christ already mysteriously unites all who have been baptized in his name. He is active in his members and is urging them to become more fully united among themselves.

This is the reason for impartial communion. With subsists in, it seems that according to Vatican II the Church of Christ is not specifically identified as the Catholic Church, but is a larger body diffused mostly in the Catholic Church but also is present in non-Catholic ecclesiastical communities, on account of baptism.

So would this "impartial communion" be true?

Quote from: trad123

Quote from: ajpirc

Those on CAF always talk about Protestants being in the Church because of their baptism. I know, from what we've been talking about, that one who is baptized is in the Catholic Church until he professes heresy, then he is not in the Church anymore.

Let me quote a post-Vatican II catechism.

The Catholic Catechism: A Contemporary Catechism of the Teachings of the Catholic Church by John A. Hardon, S. J., pgs. 509-510.

Quote

Incorporation into Christ. Through baptism we become united to Christ as head of the Mystical Body. This is the dominant theme of the Pauline letters, which remind the faithful of their organic union with Christ in the one body, which is the Church, and of which they are truly members, comparable to the limbs of a human body, whose direction depends on the head and whose animation derives from the same soul.

This is also thematic in the new baptismal liturgy, which reminds parents, godparents, and the neophytes (or children) that through baptism we are incorporated twice over, once into Christ and once again into his Church, although both are really two aspects of the same incorporation. He has identified himself with the body, which is the Church so that in becoming members of the latter we are joined with him in that mystical union of which the baptismal character is the indelible sign.

It is here, too, that the ecuмenical movement finds its most solid doctrinal foundation. Catholics can now affirm with full security that they are closely joined "with those who are baptized and have the honor of the name Christian, yet do not profess the faith in its entirety." Why so? Because they are "marked by baptism and thereby joined to Christ." Because, since they are incorporated into Christ, they have "a real union in the Holy Spirit, for he is at work among them too with the power of sanctification in gifts and graces; he has given some of them strength to the extent of shedding their blood." Consequently, it is the same Spirit of Christ, dwelling in the hearts of all Christians, in those who profess Roman Catholicism and in those who do not. He is "rousing in all Christ's disciples desire and action, in the hope that all men may be united peacefully, in the manner that Christ appointed, in one flock under one shepherd."

There is an ecuмenical movement in Christendom today only because one and the same Christ already mysteriously unites all who have been baptized in his name. He is active in his members and is urging them to become more fully united among themselves.

This is the reason for impartial communion. With subsists in, it seems that according to Vatican II the Church of Christ is not specifically identified as the Catholic Church, but is a larger body diffused mostly in the Catholic Church but also is present in non-Catholic ecclesiastical communities, on account of baptism.

So would this "impartial communion" be true?

No, as I told you, one is either in the Church or out side of the Church. There is no such thing as this degree of communion, or that degree of communion. That is a lie meant to confuse the faithful into accepting these abberant ideas.
Nothing which is not part of Catholic unity can provide forgiveness of sin, sanctification, or salvation.  Hence, the need to maintain that these sects are somehow part of the True Church, in order to justify the heretical idea that people can be saved in these sects.  Once again, they are not separated in the sense that they are still in some way connected to the Church. They are entirely and completely severed from the Church and salvation.  That is it, black or white, in or out.

JMJ