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Author Topic: The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in  (Read 30077 times)

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The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
« on: July 01, 2011, 07:59:29 AM »
As everybody knows, the Second Vatican Council was the only Ecuмenical Council in Church history that never defined dogma infallibly. Here is Pope Paul VI:

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“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority."


So because the Council's words were not protected by the Holy Spirit, false doctrine, especially Modernist doctrine, can be present in the Council's docuмents.

Lumen Gentium, a Vatican II docuмent which was promulgated by Pope Paul VI, is Vatican II's teaching on the Church. Here is a part from it that gets many traditionalists riled up:

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This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure.


"This Church...subsists in the Catholic Church." The Church has always taught that She is this Church.

Pope John Paul II says this in Ut unum sint:

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Indeed, the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities, in a degree which varies from one to the other, constitute the objective basis of the communion, albeit imperfect, which exists between them and the Catholic Church.


According to Vatican II and Pope John Paul II, different elements of the Church also subsist in the "Christian Communities" of our "seperated bretheren". This sounds like the Protestant teaching that the Church is made up of all who believe in Christ no matter what denomination on belongs to. Hey! weren't there Protestants at Vatican II and even some on the comitees?

My question here today is, is Lumen Gentium a heretical docuмent that Protestants and Modernists put together to bring an end to the Church?

Thank You

Offline gladius_veritatis

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The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 08:35:01 AM »
FWIW, the principal author of LG was....

Karol Wojtyla (JP2).

There have been volumes written about this issue, some defending it and some attacking it.

For my part, this is a clearly radical departure from what the Church has always taught about herself.

Pax and welcome to the site :)


Offline gladius_veritatis

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The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 08:38:26 AM »
Quote from: ajpirc
My question here today is, is Lumen Gentium a heretical docuмent that ... Modernists put together to bring an end to the Church?


Yes :)

FWIW, even if such was NOT the express goal, the results speak for themselves.

The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 02:50:32 PM »
Could you go into detail on what is meant by this heresy? I have a clue about it, but don't completely understand.

Offline gladius_veritatis

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The heresy of Lumen Gentium: Subsistit in
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 02:52:44 PM »
I'd be happy to do so, but I will not be able to do so today.  Thank you for your patience :)