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Author Topic: The Feeneyite Kryptonite  (Read 3445 times)

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Offline Louis Bernard

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The Feeneyite Kryptonite
« on: March 23, 2021, 04:53:19 PM »
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    • Name just one Pope, one Saint, one Doctor, or even one theologian prior to Fr. Feeney and after the Council of Trent who teaches that water Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation without any exception and that BOD & BOB are false teachings.

    Just one.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #1 on: March 23, 2021, 06:19:21 PM »
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    • Name just one Pope, one Saint, one Doctor, or even one theologian between the years 400 and 1100 who did not believe that deceased unbaptized infants went to hell.

    Just one.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #2 on: March 23, 2021, 06:22:03 PM »
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    • Your question is in fact heretical, as the Sacrament of Baptism is in fact absolutely necessary by a necessity of means for salvation without exception.  See, yet another heretical articulation of bod.

    If you want to believe in the speculation that is bod, then at least articulate it non-heretically please:  in case of bod, people would receive the Sacrament of Baptism in voto.

    This shows once again the fruits of bod, where 99% of all proponents of bod have a heretical understanding of it and consider the Sacrament of Baptism unnecessary.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #3 on: March 23, 2021, 06:27:16 PM »
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    • Catechism of St. Pius X:

    Quote
    16 Q: Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A: Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    What part of "absolutely" admits of "exceptions"?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #4 on: March 23, 2021, 06:30:11 PM »
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    • bod, such as it is, does not replace Baptism; it is only a baptism, analogically speaking, as per even the Catholic Encyclopedia.  That's because it only supplies the ONE effect of Baptism, namely, the remission of sins.  As such, while bod may suffice for justification (remission of sin), it does not suffice for salvation ... as per the Church Fathers, even St. Ambrose, who is cited as one of the two authorities behind the concept.  And it's rejected out of hand by several Church Fathers (5 or, arguably, 6).
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #5 on: March 23, 2021, 06:31:59 PM »
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    • Post-Tridentine theologians regularly distinguish between justification and salvation ... as being two different things.  And the famous proof text cited by boders from Trent clearly uses the term justification.  Consequently, whether that justification can suffice for salvation without the actual reception of Baptism remains entirely an open question.
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    Offline Durango77

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #6 on: March 23, 2021, 06:33:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 23, 2021, 06:22:03 PM
    Your question is in fact heretical, as the Sacrament of Baptism is in fact absolutely necessary by a necessity of means for salvation without exception.  See, yet another heretical articulation of bod.

    If you want to believe in the speculation that is bod, then at least articulate it non-heretically please:  in case of bod, people would receive the Sacrament of Baptism in voto.

    This shows once again the fruits of bod, where 99% of all proponents of bod have a heretical understanding of it and consider the Sacrament of Baptism unnecessary.

    Would you consider St Alphonsus a heretic?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #7 on: March 23, 2021, 06:36:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Durango77 on March 23, 2021, 06:33:46 PM
    Would you consider St Alphonsus a heretic?

    No, my point being that he was wrong to adduce that passage from Innocent III as proof that bod is de fide.  That letter had no such authority, not even being addressed to the Universal Church, and was merely Innocent opining about a subject.  In fact, in a very similar letter, Innocent III states that the consecration at Mass happens even if the priest merely thinks the words of consecration ... and opinion over which St. Thomas rightly excoriates him.
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #8 on: March 23, 2021, 06:46:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Louis Bernard on March 23, 2021, 04:53:19 PM
    Name just one Pope, one Saint, one Doctor, or even one theologian prior to Fr. Feeney and after the Council of Trent who teaches that water Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation without any exception and that BOD & BOB are false teachings.

    Just one.
    Read all of Mystici Corporis Christi but particularly #22. Pius only mentions the water baptized as members of the Church. Not even a hint of BOD. Unless one wants to claim that being a member of the Church and of Christ is not necessary for salvation, this is a very recent and final word on the mind of Church on BOD by a magisterial docuмent. Let's leave speculation aside, since it has destroyed everything in its wake.
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    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #9 on: March 23, 2021, 06:48:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 23, 2021, 06:19:21 PM
    Name just one Pope, one Saint, one Doctor, or even one theologian between the years 400 and 1100 who did not believe that deceased unbaptized infants went to hell.

    Just one.
    That never changed. Unbaptized infants go to hell. Limbo is in hell.
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    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #10 on: March 23, 2021, 06:51:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 23, 2021, 06:22:03 PM
    Your question is in fact heretical, as the Sacrament of Baptism is in fact absolutely necessary by a necessity of means for salvation without exception.  See, yet another heretical articulation of bod.

    If you want to believe in the speculation that is bod, then at least articulate it non-heretically please:  in case of bod, people would receive the Sacrament of Baptism in voto.

    This shows once again the fruits of bod, where 99% of all proponents of bod have a heretical understanding of it and consider the Sacrament of Baptism unnecessary.
    1. Prove your claim that my claim is objectively heretical.
    2. Non-heretical articulation per your view, Your Honor?
    3. Fallacious generalizations and ad hominem.
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    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #11 on: March 23, 2021, 06:53:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 23, 2021, 06:27:16 PM
    Catechism of St. Pius X:

    What part of "absolutely" admits of "exceptions"?
    Apparently the author admits of exceptions and didn’t think it was a contradiction.

    “A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church." Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine "

    Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Sacraments - Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #12 on: March 23, 2021, 06:56:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Louis Bernard on March 23, 2021, 06:53:37 PM
    "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church." Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine "17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Sacraments - Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized
    The docuмent I mentioned to you is a far higher authority than a catechism. 
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    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #13 on: March 23, 2021, 07:01:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 23, 2021, 06:30:11 PM
    bod, such as it is, does not replace Baptism; it is only a baptism, analogically speaking, as per even the Catholic Encyclopedia.  That's because it only supplies the ONE effect of Baptism, namely, the remission of sins.  As such, while bod may suffice for justification (remission of sin), it does not suffice for salvation ... as per the Church Fathers, even St. Ambrose, who is cited as one of the two authorities behind the concept.  And it's rejected out of hand by several Church Fathers (5 or, arguably, 6).
    The above is a Feeneyite innovation that has not an iota of dogmatic precedent.

    Moreover the Church Fathers aren’t the magisterium as your post seems to imply; There isn’t even unanimous consensus on the issue amongst them.
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    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: The Feeneyite Kryptonite
    « Reply #14 on: March 23, 2021, 07:02:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: gemmarose on March 23, 2021, 06:56:32 PM
    The docuмent I mentioned to you is a far higher authority than a catechism.
    I was responding to Ladislaus’ quoting of the Catechism of Pope Pius X; not your post.
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