Author Topic: The Dialogue of Saint Catherine of Siena. (Read 8812 times)

Matto · « **Reply #75 on:** June 24, 2016, 10:07:09 PM »

I do not consider the people with different opinions on this matter to be heretics even though they disagree. And I believe my SSPX priests do not either. I believe this because they do not refuse communion to either public Feeneyites or to those who think anyone at all can be saved. If they believed either one of these groups to be heretics, wouldn't they be obliged to refuse them communion under pain of sin?

B from A · « **Reply #76 on:** June 25, 2016, 07:38:19 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Cantarella
There are virtually no strict Thomist BODers on CI who actually have the interest to participate in these threads except for perhaps Nishant.

Matto is another one who actually holds a Catholic view of BoD...

"who actually have the interest* to participate in these threads" being a key phrase

[*or time, or stomach]

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #77 on:** June 25, 2016, 09:02:13 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote
If even 1 person gets mislead because of what you disseminate, you will pay for it dearly.

This is an interesting warning coming as it does from someone who is teaching that anyone can be saved without baptism, without explicit baptism of desire, and without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

If Ladislaus were asked by a Hindu if they will go to heaven, Ladislaus would tell them that outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation, that they must become Catholics, be baptized, and stay in a state of Grace thereafter.

What exactly would the author of the warning above say to a Hindu? I estimate he'd tell him that only God can answer that, but he will pray for him.

Who do you think God would condemn?

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

St. Francis Xavier:
Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552

One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.

tdrev123 · « **Reply #78 on:** June 25, 2016, 11:30:59 AM »

Does anyone find it interesting that the 3 Saints/mystic whose private revelation has to deal with BoD and eens are all women?

St Catherine of Siena

St Brigid of Sweden

Anne Catherine Emmerich ( if you don't know what she said, I don't have the quote but she said that there were pagans in purgatory).

Quite interesting....emotion>logic, emotion>Catholic doctrine

Disputaciones · « **Reply #79 on:** June 25, 2016, 11:57:19 AM »

Quote from: tdrev123

Does anyone find it interesting that the 3 Saints/mystic whose private revelation has to deal with BoD and eens are all women?

St Catherine of Siena

St Brigid of Sweden

Anne Catherine Emmerich ( if you don't know what she said, I don't have the quote but she said that there were pagans in purgatory).

Quite interesting....emotion>logic, emotion>Catholic doctrine

That's funny. Don't you know 7 Doctors of the Church, all MEN, taught BOD?

tdrev123 · « **Reply #80 on:** June 25, 2016, 12:14:15 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

Quote from: tdrev123
Does anyone find it interesting that the 3 Saints/mystic whose private revelation has to deal with BoD and eens are all women?

St Catherine of Siena

St Brigid of Sweden

Anne Catherine Emmerich ( if you don't know what she said, I don't have the quote but she said that there were pagans in purgatory).

Quite interesting....emotion>logic, emotion>Catholic doctrine

That's funny. Don't you know 7 Doctors of the Church, all MEN, taught BOD?

I am talking about private revelation, not teachings.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #81 on:** June 25, 2016, 01:21:44 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote
If even 1 person gets mislead because of what you disseminate, you will pay for it dearly.

This is an interesting warning coming as it does from someone who is teaching that anyone can be saved without baptism, without explicit baptism of desire, and without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

I dont teach that because the Church has never taught that. You are a liar and bad willed. I submit to what the Church teaches even in catechisms; you don't.

You Feneyites engage in the Protestant idea of private interpretation.

If you knew anything about Catholicism, you would know that it operates under authority and that nobody is allowed to come up with his own conclusions about anything. Anything you publish has to be reviewed and approved by the Church. You would also know laymen have no business coming up with theological conclusions since they have neither the training nor the authority.

The most anyone can be is an echo, resounding what the Church already teaches and not engaging in private interpretation and disseminating one's conclusions.

Quote from: Last Tradhican

If Ladislaus were asked by a Hindu if they will go to heaven, Ladislaus would tell them that outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation, that they must become Catholics, be baptized, and stay in a state of Grace thereafter.

What exactly would the author of the warning above say to a Hindu? I estimate he'd tell him that only God can answer that, but he will pray for him.

Master Ladislaus is the new Master Luther to you eh? You follow Master Ladislaus instead of following the Church's approved teachers like St. Thomas?

You lie and judge rashly again, because I would tell him the same thing, because there is a difference between the contemplation of scenarios and laying out of principles and an actual case where you're dealing with a person directly.

But Feeneyites like yourself are incapable of making simple distinctions and routinely employ the fallacy of the slippery slope.

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Who do you think God would condemn?

Those who don't submit to Church teaching, like yourself, but instead follow an excommunicated priest and internet poster and engage in private interpretation.

It's really that simple: you Feeneyites refuse to submit to the Church and engage in private interpretation of the Magisterium, coming up with opinions the Church has never taught. This very idea has always been condemned.

In fact, there was a specific Bull issued stating that no one at all may presume to interpret the canons of the Council of Trent contrary to what the APPROVED theologians and teachers of the Church taught. The penalty was excommunication.

But this is exactly what you Feeneyites do: privately interpret the canons of Trent and everything else and come up with your own conclusions, because you will not find a single theologian or approved teacher that interprets the canons of Trent like Master Ladislaus here or the excommunicate Fr. Feeney.

Tell me, do you accept the teaching of perfect contrition? That you can be saved without sacramental confession? Do you believe you can be saved without ever receiving the Holy Eucharist?

Disputaciones · « **Reply #82 on:** June 25, 2016, 01:37:03 PM »

Quote from: tdrev123

Quote from: Disputaciones
Quote from: tdrev123
Does anyone find it interesting that the 3 Saints/mystic whose private revelation has to deal with BoD and eens are all women?

St Catherine of Siena

St Brigid of Sweden

Anne Catherine Emmerich ( if you don't know what she said, I don't have the quote but she said that there were pagans in purgatory).

Quite interesting....emotion>logic, emotion>Catholic doctrine

That's funny. Don't you know 7 Doctors of the Church, all MEN, taught BOD?

I am talking about private revelation, not teachings.

So what? What's your point?

And i don't trust in Emmerich's revelations, by the way. They have been tampered with so we can't know whats legit and whats not.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #83 on:** June 26, 2016, 11:11:32 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote
If even 1 person gets mislead because of what you disseminate, you will pay for it dearly.

This is an interesting warning coming as it does from someone who is teaching that anyone can be saved without baptism, without explicit baptism of desire, and without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

I dont teach that because the Church has never taught that. I submit to what the Church teaches even in catechisms; you don't.

Notice how the Fake-BODer never clearly defines what he believes.

"I submit to what the Church teaches", does not define theologically what one believes on this subject, because the Church teaches the strict-EENS of say St. Francis Xavier and Holy Office under Pope Pius X, and it also allows the teaching of the salvation of anyone of Vatican II.

Quote

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

St. Francis Xavier:
Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552

One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #84 on:** June 26, 2016, 11:19:22 AM »

Here's a prior posting to another Fake BODer, same thing, they never define what they believe because they are embarrassed to do so.

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Notice how the Fake BODer never defines himself clearly:

The precise question:
Quote from: Last Tradhican

As it happens, anyone that has taken part in these debates for a time and still believes that people can be saved without baptism, without explicit baptism of desire, without baptism of blood, has "a horse in the race" regarding the salvation of non-Catholics. And that is the ONLY problem today, that long time Catholics on CI can still believe that "people can be saved without baptism, without explicit baptism of desire, and without baptism of blood".

The Fake BODer "answer":

Quote
I would also state that nobody who dies outside of the Catholic Church is saved. If they are saved, they are saved in the Catholic Church. There is no debate on this issue. I follow the Church regarding interpretation of this

Does he believe that people are saved without baptism, without explicit baptism of desire, without baptism of blood, without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity?

He does not say, because he is too embarrassed to admit what he believes.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #85 on:** June 26, 2016, 04:11:11 PM »

Tradhican:

The post is about the Dialogue of St. Catherine of Sienna. What do you believe regarding this? There are only so many options. Was it God the Father truly speaking to her or was she wrong?

Disputaciones · « **Reply #86 on:** June 26, 2016, 04:49:29 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Notice how the Fake-BODer never clearly defines what he believes.

Never clearly define what i believe? You've never even asked me.

If you must know, i believe all that was taught up till 1958. I was delivered of the Feeneyite heresy years ago and came to understand that there are subtleties and distinctions etc. in theology and things which still have not been defined definitively IN SOME THINGS, such as, whether explicit faith is necessary without exception in the Trinity and Incarnation as well. THIS HAS NOT BEEN SETTLED BY THE CHURCH YET. St. Alphonsus treats them as opinions, with different levels of certainty, not dogma. This was hard for me to accept because it seems patently obvious that you must absolutely believe in Jesus Christ explicitly to be saved, but there it is, thats how it is. This is a fact which those who ignore the rules of theology simply don't LIKE to accept, for whatever reason.

But those are the facts. We all know the Church did not promulgate or define everything all at once, and this dogma has many intricacies.

It takes humility to say, "Hey, my opinion is worthless and i have no business pontificating on theological matters, much less condemn those who don't agree with my own (condemned) private interpretation of the Magisterium. All i can do is inform myself as best i can and be prudent and wait for the matter to be settled."

Quote from: Last Tradhican

"I submit to what the Church teaches", does not define theologically what one believes on this subject, because the Church teaches the strict-EENS of say St. Francis Xavier and Holy Office under Pope Pius X, and it also allows the teaching of the salvation of anyone of Vatican II.

The Church has been teaching heresy for centuries then? Or maybe Feeney is the heretic and the one who's wrong?

Choosing between the Church and Feeney, you choose Feeney. Is that not idolatry? To follow a person rather than the Church?

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote
The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

This does not conflict with BOD. It says those who DIE AS infidels are damned. By definition, one who achieves BOD doesn't die as an infidel because supernatural faith is required without exception for BOD, and you can't have supernatural faith and remain an infidel at the same time can you? Even Suprema Haec Sacra teaches supernatural faith is absolutely necessary.

Quote from: Last Tradhican

St. Francis Xavier:
Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552

One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.

How did St. Francis Xavier know that in all those centuries, not one of those relatives was enlightened and achieved supernatural faith? He couldn't have known that, its impossible, unless he had some revelations, which i don't know about. So i don't know if i agree with this quote because it means condemning thousands of people which you have no way to know whether they were actually enlightened at some point or not. Saints are not infallible and they can say erroneous things sometimes. Or do you believe he was infallible?

And if you think what i say is "heretical", then do you believe it is beyond God's power to enlighten savages and give them supernatural faith? Of course not, you believe this yourself. So you have to agree that this quote seems wrong, or maybe he said other things which qualified it, who knows.

Well then: do you accept the teaching of perfect contrition? That you can be saved without sacramental confession? Do you believe you can be saved without ever receiving the Holy Eucharist?

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #87 on:** June 26, 2016, 07:28:12 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

If you must know, i believe all that was taught up till 1958. I was delivered of the Feeneyite heresy ...."Hey, my opinion is worthless and i have no business pontificating on theological matters, much less condemn those who don't agree with my own (condemned) private interpretation of the Magisterium.

You contradict yourself by calling people who disagree with you, heretics and condemning them. And by not accepting teachings on EENS after 1958, you are also " pontificating on theological matters".

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #88 on:** June 26, 2016, 07:39:25 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

Well then: do you accept the teaching of perfect contrition? That you can be saved without sacramental confession? [/color]

The teaching is a dogma clearly defined in the Council of Trent. It requires at the least that the person desire to go to confession to a priest.

You believe that anyone can be saved even if they have no explicit faith in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity, that is the subject of the discussion.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #89 on:** June 26, 2016, 07:54:40 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote from: Disputaciones

Well then: do you accept the teaching of perfect contrition? That you can be saved without sacramental confession? [/color]

The teaching is a dogma clearly defined in the Council of Trent. It requires at the least that the person desire to go to confession to a priest.

You believe that anyone can be saved even if they have no explicit faith in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity, that is the subject of the discussion.

No, actually the subject of the discussion is whether or not you believe Saint Catherine committed a blasphemous lie when she wrote the Dialogue or if the Dialogue is true. You conveniently ignore this.