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You are not learning anything, you just stick to your few "BOD cliches", and repeat them over and over.

Heh. Charming as ever, aren't you? You must think I enjoy repeating myself, but I wouldn't have to, if you'd have answered the first time. And no, again you did not.

My question was, what practical difference does it make to you? How do you practically know the difference between someone who is baptized in water secretly in a distant land and someone who merely receives an internal illumination? It makes no practical difference.

BUT can't get anyone to baptize him because time He ran out, or He just can't do

Not at all. The Holy Ghost can baptize the man by bringing him to the right dispositions of belief, but without the need for any human instruments.

When you teach the contrary dogmatically, you make it out that God is bound to the sacraments. And that is erroneous and possibly heretical, as St.Thomas says.

You may believe that God will always bring those baptized by desire to water, but  you cannot believe either that those who die justified are lost or that God is bound to the sacraments.

While I have no objection to discussing my difference of opinion with Cupertino if he wants it, maybe you should take your own advice, Nadie, and you and Gregory should sort out the issue of justification first. He says, "Obviously one cannot die justified and NOT go to heaven!" Do you agree? You have maintained since the first post that "Trent says nothing about what happens to a person who is justified, but dies before he can receive baptism"

Because of his understanding, Gregory is forced to do violence to the text of St.Luke that talks about Cornelius. I take it as it is written. When St.Peter discoursed on the Trinity, the Incarnation and even the Passion and Resurrection, the Holy Ghost fell on his listeners in like measure as He had fallen on the Apostles. This is baptism of desire in the deposit of revelation.

So, come on guys, which is it?

Nashant2011:
My question was, what practical difference does it make to you? How do you practically know the difference between someone who is baptized in water secretly in a distant land and someone who merely receives an internal illumination? It makes no practical difference.

Nadie responds:
It makes a huge theological difference, for one is 100% in line with EENS and Trents teaching on the absolute need of water baptism for salvation. The other BOD, contradicts EENS in that the person is not part of the Mystical Body, and contradicts Trent (and the universal magisterium) on the absolute need of water baptism for salvation. BOD opens the door to all manner of rationalization, and speculation, and ends in "no practical difference" between it and outside the Church there is salvation.


Nadie wrote:
BUT can't get anyone to baptize him because time He ran out, or He just can't do

Nashant answered: Not at all. The Holy Ghost can baptize the man by bringing him to the right dispositions of belief, but without the need for any human instruments. When you teach the contrary dogmatically, you make it out that God is bound to the sacraments. And that is erroneous and possibly heretical, as St.Thomas says.

Nadie responds: You hang your whole sytem on this "God is not bound to the sacraments"? Yet it is you who bounds God to do the difficult "send a preacher or an  angel, or enlighten a person internally, all to teach him the Trinity and the Incarnation (extremey complex teachings), but then you restrict God from teaching by the same means to the person that he needs to be baptized, nor keep him alive till He enlightens someone to pour water on the person's head?

And yet you say that I bound God? You go against God's predestination and providence, and the clear teachings of EENS, with your erroneous application of
"God is not bound to the sacraments".

 In your mind, God created and placed a person in a place where He could not later reach him with water, or reach him with a person to teach him the faith, so, as a last minute solution, He sends an angel or enlightens him internally, BUT can't get anyone to baptize him because time He ran out, or He just can't do it.

You are in a Vortex of confusion, read carefully:



St. Augustine:
“If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination[/b], or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)  


In my world, "they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can't be snatched away from His predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined".

God predestines those that are to be saved and placed them in the way of His ordinary salvation from the beginning of time, and if He so chooses to save someone by an extraordinary means like sending an angel, He can do it, within the laws He has established. AND of course internally enlighten them (that's what His grace does, which St. John the Baptist said "can change these very stones into sons of Abraham"). God can get baptism to all of His elect without having to have an "alternative plan".

If what you believe were true, then your God is disordered, for He would have preordained thousands of people to be returned to life to be baptized, for no reason, and others preordained to be saved unbaptized, while He wasted His baptism on millions who died in mortal sin, and his dogmas do not mean what they clearly say. You are in the Vortex of confusion.


Nishant2011 said You may believe that God will always bring those baptized by desire to water,

Nadie answers: I do.


Nishant2011 said but  you cannot believe either that those who die justified are lost

Nadie answers: I never said that. If you asked me: "What happens to a catechumen who is justified before he receives the sacrament of baptism, but dies before he can get baptized?"

I would tell you that, that is the ridiculous question, for whomever God has  predestinated for baptism can't be snatched away from his predestination. You are splitting two things that go together, like splitting the body and the soul., and then asking the ridiculous question. The end result of your ridiculous question we see today, in all manner of rationalization, and speculation, that has ended in "no practical difference" between it and outside the Church there is salvation.

Quote

You are not learning anything, you just stick to your few "BOD cliches", and repeat them over and over.

Heh. Charming as ever, aren't you? You must think I enjoy repeating myself, but I wouldn't have to, if you'd have answered the first time. And no, again you did not.

My question was, what practical difference does it make to you? How do you practically know the difference between someone who is baptized in water secretly in a distant land and someone who merely receives an internal illumination? It makes no practical difference.

Quote

BUT can't get anyone to baptize him because time He ran out, or He just can't do

Not at all. The Holy Ghost can baptize the man by bringing him to the right dispositions of belief, but without the need for any human instruments.

When you teach the contrary dogmatically, you make it out that God is bound to the sacraments. And that is erroneous and possibly heretical, as St.Thomas says.

You may believe that God will always bring those baptized by desire to water, but  you cannot believe either that those who die justified are lost or that God is bound to the sacraments.

While I have no objection to discussing my difference of opinion with Cupertino if he wants it, maybe you should take your own advice, Nadie, and you and Gregory should sort out the issue of justification first. He says, "Obviously one cannot die justified and NOT go to heaven!" Do you agree? You have maintained since the first post that "Trent says nothing about what happens to a person who is justified, but dies before he can receive baptism"

Because of his understanding, Gregory is forced to do violence to the text of St.Luke that talks about Cornelius. I take it as it is written. When St.Peter discoursed on the Trinity, the Incarnation and even the Passion and Resurrection, the Holy Ghost fell on his listeners in like measure as He had fallen on the Apostles. This is baptism of desire in the deposit of revelation.

So, come on guys, which is it?

Lol. Nishant, it is not doing violence to ANYTHING to acknowledge an ACTUAL grace, no matter how tremendous. Heck, I was told this by NOVUS ORDO traditionalist priests. Cornelius experienced an actual grace of the Holy Spirit. There was NOTHING to indicate that this was an occasion of either spiritual regeneration or an infusion of SANCTIFYING grace.

It's not gymnastics. ESPECIALLY not if Novus Ordites are teaching it...

The text does NOT claim what you want it to claim, i.e. that This occasion provided Cornelius with Formal Justification and Spiritual Regeneration. It was merely a sign of God's election and predestination.