You heroin BODers strain a gnat and swallow a herd of camels. What do gnats like these you are knit-picking on matter when:

Quote from: bowler

Notice that the three threads that I started are about Heroin BOD, the belief that a person can be saved even if he has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor to be baptized (of course), nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

I've been doing only that for quite some time, and these people like SJB, Lover of Truth, and Ambrose who persist in arguing with me, understand very well that they ARE DEFENDING HEROIN BOD, for that is all that I am talking about. Make no mistake about it this is not about a catechumen or a martyr for the faith that they are defending.

They are defending the teaching that persons who practice ANY false "religion",  can be saved even if they has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor explicit desire to be baptized , nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.
 

That belief they are defending is not taught by one Father, Doctor or Saint, and is opposed to the Council and Catechism of Trent, and all the dogmatic decrees on EENS and the Sacrament of Baptism.

Bowler,

Do you think that the story (perhaps, legend) of Trajan being raised from the dead to receive sacramental Baptism is heretical?

The Christianisation of Rome resulted in further embellishment of his legend: it was commonly said in medieval times that Pope Gregory I, through divine intercession, resurrected Trajan from the dead and baptized him into the Christian faith. An account of this features in the Golden Legend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan#Trajan.27s_legacy

The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

This quote seems a little presumptuous.  After all, what is "hell"?  Per Dante, it's not necessarily a bad place, at least for everyone:

In Limbo reside the unbaptized and the virtuous pagans, who, though not sinful, did not accept Christ. Limbo shares many characteristics with the Asphodel Meadows; thus the guiltless damned are punished by living in a deficient form of Heaven. Without baptism ("the portal of the faith that you embrace")[6] they lacked the hope for something greater than rational minds can conceive. Limbo includes green fields and a castle with seven gates to represent the seven virtues. The castle is the dwelling place of the wisest men of antiquity, including Virgil himself, as well as the Persian polymath Avicenna. In the castle Dante meets the poets Homer, Horace, Ovid, and Lucan; the Amazon queen Penthesilea; the mathematician Euclid; the scientist Pedanius Dioscorides; the statesman Cicero; the first doctor Hippocrates; the philosophers Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and Averroes; the historical figures Lucretia, Lucius Junius Brutus, and Julius Caesar in his role as Roman general ("in his armor, falcon-eyed");[7] mythological characters Hector, Electra, Camilla, Latinus, and Orpheus; and many others. Interestingly, he also sees Saladin in Limbo (Canto IV). Dante implies that all virtuous non-Christians find themselves here, although he later encounters two (Cato of Utica and Statius) in Purgatory and two (Trajan and Ripheus) in Heaven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#First_Circle_.28Limbo.29

In addition, consider this very important teaching from Pope Sixtus V:

Noticing that frequently by various Apostolic Constitutions the audacity and daring of most profligate men, who know no restraint, of sinning with license against the commandment "do not kill" was repressed; We who are placed by the Lord in the supreme throne of justice, being counseled by a most just reason, are in part renewing old laws and in part extending them in order to restrain with just punishment the monstrous and atrocious brutality of those who have no fear to kill most cruelly fetuses still hiding in the maternal viscera. Who will not detest such an abhorrent and evil act, by which are lost not only the bodies but also the souls? (Popes believe in the limbo of the little ones) Who will not condemn to a most grave punishment the impiety of him who will exclude a soul created in the image of God and for which Our Lord Jesus Christ has shed His precious Blood, and which is capable of eternal happiness and is destined to be in the company of angels, from the blessed vision of God, and who has impeded as much as he could the filling up of heavenly mansions (left vacant by the fallen angels), and has taken away the service to God by His creature?  who has deprived children of life before they could naturally see light or could be protected by maternal body from ferocious cruelty? Who will not abhor the cruelty and unrestrained debauchery of impious men who have arrived into such a state of mind that they procure poisons in order to extinguish the conceived fetuses within the viscera, and pour them out, trying to provoke by a nefarious crime a violent and untimely death and killing of their progeny.  Finally who will not condemn to a most grave punishment the crimes of those who with poisons, potions and evil actions (for example tying up Fallopian tubes) sterilize women or impede that they conceive or give birth by pernicious medicines and drugs? (for example using hormonal abortive contraceptives synthesized from Dioscorea composita grown in Mexico).

http://iteadjmj.com/aborto/eng-prn.html

So, if unborn babies who perish at the hands of the abortionist are not worthy of Heaven, why is a pagan who is of "good faith" worthy of Heaven?

So, if unborn babies who perish at the hands of the abortionist are not worthy of Heaven, why is a pagan who is of "good faith" worthy of Heaven?

That was the biggest objection I "came up with" when I was under the Feeneyite sway.  

You cannot effectively chose for or against God until the age of reason.  But the unborn babies do not suffer the pain of sense and are in fact perfectly happy.  As happy, I suppose, as Adam and Eve were before the fall.  A pagan of good faith can overcome all sorts of obstacles to obtain that good faith and chose for God rather than reject Him.  Will to do the will of God.  Do good and avoid evil for love of God.  Seek God's will at all times.  Die in a state of sanctifying grace because of his supernatural faith and perfect charity.  God does not abandon such a soul but enables it to reach the destination to which it was headed.  

Quote from: Lover of Truth

A pagan of good faith can overcome all sorts of obstacles to obtain that good faith and chose for God rather than reject Him.  Will to do the will of God.  Do good and avoid evil for love of God.  Seek God's will at all times.  Die in a state of sanctifying grace because of his supernatural faith and perfect charity.  God does not abandon such a soul but enables it to reach the destination to which it was headed.  

Why do you undermine in such a way Our Holy Catholic Faith, the only True One? This is the kind of thinking that has demolished Our Religion and has devastated the Great Christian civilization. The fact is that all cultures are demonic and under the dominion of Satan until they are evangelized to Catholicism. This is the incontrovertible teaching of Tradition and Scripture. Bad will and failure to cooperate with God’s grace is the reason He does not reveal the Gospel to them.

He undermines the Holy faith the way he does because he scorns the sacraments, as SJB puts it - Trent's catechism teaches that he despises the sacraments.

His posts demonstrate his deep contempt for the sacraments. To those of us who treasure the sacraments, we see what he is really all about, namely, as you noted, he is on a mission to undermine the faith.

Quote from: Lover of Truth

A pagan of good faith can overcome all sorts of obstacles to obtain that good faith and chose for God rather than reject Him.  Will to do the will of God.  Do good and avoid evil for love of God.  Seek God's will at all times.  Die in a state of sanctifying grace because of his supernatural faith and perfect charity.  God does not abandon such a soul but enables it to reach the destination to which it was headed.  

Why do you undermine in such a way Our Holy Catholic Faith, the only True One? This is the kind of thinking that has demolished Our Religion and has devastated the Great Christian civilization. The fact is that all cultures are demonic and under the dominion of Satan until they are evangelized to Catholicism. This is the incontrovertible teaching of Tradition and Scripture. Bad will and failure to cooperate with God’s grace is the reason He does not reveal the Gospel to them.

Let's translate that (my comments in red, my strikeouts and corrections):

Lover of Truth said : A pagan of good faith can overcome all sorts of obstacles to obtain that good his faith and chose for God his god rather than reject Him it.  Will to do the will of Godhis god.  Do good and avoid evil for love of Godhis god (this is impossible).  Seek God's his gods will at all times.  Die in a state of sanctifying grace (impossible) because of his supernatural man made faith and perfect charity.  His god or godsGod does not abandon such a soul but enables it to reach the destination to which it was headed (hell)".

LOT believes that supernatural faith is the belief in a god that rewards. That's it. No belief in Christ , nor belief in the Trinity is needed for his salvation. He also believes that sanctifying grace teaches us this "supernatural faith" that god is a rewarder.

In other words, LOT is 100% prepared for ecuмenism, religious freedom, and Vatican II speak, it is just that he does not like the New Mass and all it's trappings.

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Acts Ch 10, Verse 47

Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ver. 47. Can any man forbid water? &c. Or doubt that these, on whom the Holy Ghost hath descended, may be made members of the Christian Church, by baptism, as Christ ordained? (Witham) --- Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. (St. Augustine, sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4.)

contemneth = scorn

Not sure what your point is but if you read what is written, you will find this is teaching that there is no justification without the sacraments.

So you don't read things "as-written" when they don't fit your "faith" which is NOT the Catholic Faith.


 

Quote from: Mark Chapter 16, Verse 16

He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not, shall be condemned.

Ver. 16. Let those weep and lament who have not yet seen him, and in a short time they shall receive consolation. Blessed are they that weep, for they shall be comforted, St. Matthew v. (St. Jerome) --- Perhaps some one will say within himself, I have already believed, I shall be saved: he says true, if his faith be supported by good works; for that only is true faith, which does not contradict in works what is believed in words. (St. Gregory)

Curious as to why you didn't comment on this one ... The absolute necessity of faith and charity, which was required at ALL times for salvation, is emphasized here, rather than the necessity of Sacramental Baptism.

Example of Hypocrisy (actually should be hypocrazy):



Heroin BODers like SJB, LOT and  Amdro gratuitously insist that the ambiguous St. Ambrose Valentinian Oration is an example of baptism of desire of a catechumen.  However, the Heroin BODers like SJB, LOT and  Amdro believe that Valentinian (and anyone else) would have been saved even if he practiced ANY false "religion",  and had no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor explicit desire to be baptized , nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

So what on earth are they nitpicking about this eulogy? ANSWER: It is because they are hypocrites.




 Also, see my thread: "Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written" . It is interesting that ALL those 100's of those clear quotes, the Heroin BODer says should not be understood as they are written. However, this ambiguous Valentinian eulogy must be understood to teach BOD of the catechumen (an explicit desire which they don't even believe is necessary for salvation!).
 

 These posting by SJB, LOT and Amdro clearly shows that Heroin BODers beliefs start with disbelief in EENS, "it just can't be", then from there they seek their teachers according to their own desires, disregarding or rationalizing all the inconsistencies.