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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64268 times)

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Offline CatholicInAmerica

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #470 on: April 21, 2023, 01:10:17 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 21, 2023, 12:40:56 PM
False.  A valid sacramental baptism saves.


Here's your problem.  You are incorrectly using these terms, and causing confusion.

1.  The common understanding of "baptism of water" implies that it is valid, which further implies the person was properly disposed, which further implies they had natural faith.
2.  If one has been properly baptized, then they have received Supernatural Faith, which saves.
3.  One cannot have Supernatural/salvific Faith before/without the sacrament of baptism.
4.  If you are arguing that one can have Faith before/outside/without the sacrament, this is heresy.
5.  If you are using the phrase "baptism of water" to simply mean the pouring of water upon a person who doesn't want to be baptized, then your phrase is wrong and confusing.

There is natural faith and supernatural faith.  Supernatural Faith ONLY comes from the sacrament of baptism.  Ergo, only those who are baptized can be in the bosom of the Church.


"Having Faith" refers to natural faith, which, as Scripture says, "comes from hearing".  This is also akin to "having the will/desire" to be a member of the Church.  But no one can WILL to do anything supernatural; this is heresy.  All things supernatural are a gift from God, which we can ONLY get from the Church, through the sacraments.

If by "having Faith" you mean being sacramentally baptized, then I agree.  But again, your language is imprecise.

An unrepentent heretic, I agree.  Typically, a heretic refers to a former member of the Church, which means they were already baptized, so all that they need to do to be saved is repent and confess.  I doubt an unrepentent heretic would die for the Church.  Seems contradictory.  But if they did, yes, they would not be saved.
False.  A valid sacramental baptism saves.
- You and I agree on this point.. I was saying what trent says, justification (for someone with the use of reason) is not just the mere act of baptism, it must be preceded by faith.

4.  If you are arguing that one can have Faith before/outside/without the sacrament, this is heresy.
- Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.

This is what I mean by Faith^

Trent follows:

This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]
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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #471 on: April 21, 2023, 01:14:56 PM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on April 21, 2023, 12:04:35 PM
“I didn’t read your arguments”… sounded like fallible cope? I cited Trent. Regarding what you say about Cantate Domino, that teaching is further explained in Trent’s decree on Justification. If you understand the true teaching on Justification...
Ah I see! Great to hear Trent explained Florence otherwise we stupid laypeople would all assume that "even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ" means exactly what it says.

Phew! Glad Trent destroyed that pesky heresy that unless a man be born again of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Now we finally have the TRUE teaching on Justification.


St. Francis De Sales (Doctor of the Church), The Catholic Controversy, c. 1602, p. 228: “The Councils… decide and define some article.  If after all this another test has to be tried before their [the Council’s] determination is received, will not another also be wanted?  Who will not want to apply his test, and whenever will the matter be settled?... And why not a third to know if the second is faithful? – and then a fourth, to test the third?  Everything must be done over again, and posterity will never trust antiquity but will go ever turning upside down the holiest articles of faith in the wheel of their understandings… what we say is that when a Council has applied this test, our brains have not now to revise but to believe.”

                                                                             
Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”


Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:  “Besides, one baptism which regenerates all who are baptized in Christ must be faithfully confessed by all just as ‘one God and one faith’ [Eph. 4:5], which celebrated in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit we believe to be commonly the perfect remedy for salvation for adults as for children.”
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #472 on: April 21, 2023, 01:17:03 PM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on April 21, 2023, 12:06:31 PM
Instead of name calling how about you show that YOUR POSITION is Compatible with Trent and Catholic teaching. How can one be Justified but not saved? Save the name calling for someone who is not of good will. I am trying to have a discussion.

We've spent pages on this ... in this very thread.  Then you jump on at the end and insist on our reposting everything.  Go back and read the thread.
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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #473 on: April 21, 2023, 01:17:29 PM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on April 21, 2023, 12:09:42 PM
Explain this using the quote above and other quotes of ST. Ambrose then. I showed my citations now show
 yours


St. Ambrose, De mysteriis, 390-391 A.D.: “You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element without any sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5] Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.”


The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.: “The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed he must circuмcise himself from his sins so that he can be saved;...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the Sacrament of Baptism.” “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.”

St. Ambrose couldn't have been any more clear.
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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #474 on: April 21, 2023, 01:19:06 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 21, 2023, 01:17:03 PM
We've spent pages on this ... in this very thread.  Then you jump on at the end and insist on our reposting everything.  Go back and read the thread.
I'm baffled how you can believe there can be regeneration without complete remission of sin.


Council of Trent, Sess. 5, Original Sin, # 5, ex cathedra: “If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema.  FOR, IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.”
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