Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 90 91 [92] 93 94 ... 102

Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64238 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #455 on: April 21, 2023, 05:41:01 AM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on April 20, 2023, 03:40:59 PM
yes that is 100% correct. To receive baptism of desire of blood to to be Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

Ridiculous.  Now you're twisting St. Ambrose into saying the opposite of what he's actually saying.  He's clearly referring to the form of the Sacrament of Baptism here.  This is pathetic.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #456 on: April 21, 2023, 05:41:59 AM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on April 20, 2023, 12:41:56 AM
You are condemned here along with feeney on you erroneous idea that you can be justified and not be saved.

You have no idea what you're talking about, NonCathlicInAmerica.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #457 on: April 21, 2023, 05:49:32 AM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on April 20, 2023, 12:34:07 AM
Above is the full quote. Look below to see how dishonest the cut up quote that MHFM posted on their site is:

St. Ambrose, Funeral Oration of Valentinian, 4th century: “But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacraments of baptism.  Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request?  But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come to Italy, he would be initiated… Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested?  And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wis. 4:7)… Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and desire have washed him, also.”[1]

According to St. Ambrose, there's a state of washing without crowning.  You do realize, right?, the the notion of CROWNing referred to entering the KINGdom of Heaven.

Pope St. Sulpicius dogmatically taught that ALL those who while desiring the Sacrament of Baptism died before receiving it would lose the Kingdom of Heaven.

5-6 Church Fathers rejected Baptism of Desire, several explicitly.  St. Augustine floated the idea in his youth but then later forcefully retracted it (he published an entire large book later in life called Corrections).  St. Ambrose speculated about a state of being washed without being crowned, while elsewhere declaring that Catechumens who die before initiated cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  Pope St. Sulpicius dogmatically rejected Baptism of Desire (a quote, like many others, that is strangely ommitted by BoDers).  You'll never see a BoDer quote the contrary evidence, but they selectively cherry-pick the one or two tenuous and tentative sources they can find in support of their speculation.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #458 on: April 21, 2023, 05:53:46 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyPadua on April 08, 2023, 10:28:09 PM
What about the Fathers before Trent like St Gregory nαzιanzus? He and many others denied or held strictly to water baptism but they opinions are never considered... (yes I know they are before Trent but Trent doesn't *clearly* define BoD).

Ignored ... just like the other 4-5 other Church Fathers who rejected BoD.  They're chopped liver compared to the youthful speculation of a St. Augustine, who authoritatively taught that, "having gone back and forth on the matter, I find that in favor of BoD"  Also, the young Augustine who speculated this way is the authority behind BoD, but the later Augusutine (after he had matured in his faith from battling Donatists and Pelagians) is also to be ignored.

Heck, even the Modernist Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner admitted that the Fathers were generally opposed to the notion of BoD, and that St. Augustine even retracted the opinion, while alleged Trads like Fr. Laisney lie by claming that the Fathers were universally in favor of BoD.  St. Robert Bellarmine even mentioned that the Fathers were divided on BoD ... all signs that no such "doctrine" was ever revealed by Our Lord and that no "dogma" of BoD is even definable.

Trent never taught and never intended to teach BoD.  Neither did the Catechism of Trent.  Outside of this, the closes thing to "Magisterium" would be Pope Innocent II, but he was clearly opining on the "authority of Ambrose and Augustine" (again, as if the other Fathers were chopped liver) and not teaching it with his own papal authority.  This same Pope was forcefully rebuked by St. Thomas for opining in a very similar "letter" (also not directed to the Universal Church) that a Mass would be valid if the priest merely thought the words of consecration.
Logged

Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #459 on: April 21, 2023, 07:40:27 AM »
Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on April 20, 2023, 03:40:59 PM
yes that is 100% correct. To receive baptism of desire of blood to to be Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Ambrose is saying that belief alone does not save. Just as Trent says, belief AND Baptism regenerates and justifies. In your view, do ST Augustine and ST Ambrose disagree on Baptism of blood and desire sufficing? Look at my posts on page 30, and you will see all the info you need.
To be honest I didn't read your posts, they were long winded and seemed like fallible cope. Short and concise is easier on the attention span.

The Church has never taught Baptism of blood, and even refutes the very notion.


Quote
Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino", Council of Florence

"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”, unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."
BoB is infallibly destroyed by Pope Eugene IV at Florence in Cantate Domino. You can quote hundreds of fallible statements of theological speculation, but unless you have infallible statements, then I do not care. Because the Church infallibly says, No/Cope to Baptism of blood.

Sorry I seem rude but I am tired of this three baptism cope and invincible ignorance heresy, even my sspx priest has mentioned it and sending him infallible quotes didn't help him. They just ignore and regurgitate the same fallible statements....

As blessed Eugene IV stated. No 'good' produces eternal reward for a person if they aren't united in the Church. Even shedding blood does not avail you to the beatific vision (which is certainly an eternal reward).

I don't know how ladislaus goes through walls of text of the same exact arguments over and over... But I'm glad he does.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 90 91 [92] 93 94 ... 102
« previous next »