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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41386 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #435 on: April 08, 2023, 08:07:33 AM »
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  • Also, another problem modern readers have with this passage is a lack of understanding of the “without…or” phrase used.  People assume “or” means optional, but that’s only true in normal, everyday language.  “Without…or” is legal language, because it’s precise, and unless one is used to this phraseology, you’ll misinterpret it in common use, instead of the legal/precise meaning it’s meant to convey.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #436 on: April 08, 2023, 10:23:17 PM »
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  • But I'm glad that there may be others of good will paying attention to this threat, as it's irrefutable that Trent is NOT teaching any "Baptism of Desire" ... for the reasons re-explained above.
    "threat" um l-lad :laugh1:


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #437 on: April 08, 2023, 10:28:09 PM »
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  • As I noted in the language of Trent itself, it says "in adults" there is a period of preparation before receipt of the sacrament, referring to the period of catechesis before baptism. There is, again, a distinction being made between adults and infants - as there is in the "other means" or "other remedy" language of the Catechism, Florence, and Pius XII - this time in terms of the administration of the sacrament.

    You've convinced yourself that BOD is a phantom, that's all. 

    What about the Fathers before Trent like St Gregory nαzιanzus? He and many others denied or held strictly to water baptism but they opinions are never considered... (yes I know they are before Trent but Trent doesn't *clearly* define BoD).

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #438 on: April 09, 2023, 06:40:57 AM »
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  • What about the Fathers before Trent like St Gregory nαzιanzus? He and many others denied or held strictly to water baptism but they opinions are never considered... (yes I know they are before Trent but Trent doesn't *clearly* define BoD).

    Look, here's the bottom line for me. It's not a question of what I, you or anyone here thinks makes sense or what is right, but what God has determined to do. Has He determined to save men through water baptism alone since the promulgation of the Gospel, and determined that that is the sole way He will justify men and apply to them the Blood of Christ, without whom there is no redemption (Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapter 3)? John 3:5 can be read that way, and indeed some of the Fathers speak that way. As I have said, I was a former "Feeneyite" and am not adverse to that view (despite what some around here think).

    But it is ridiculous to argue, for example, that the Catechism of Trent doesn't speak of a BOD and therefore lend the authoritative, interpretive voice of the Church to the meaning of Session VI, Chapter 4 of the Counsel. Even the Dimonds recognize that the Catechism speaks of BOD, but reject it on other grounds. In my view, it's simply not credible to argue that the Catechism doesn't express BOD - kudos for the Dimonds for not making that weak argument. 

    But to argue - as the Dimonds do - that the Council doesn't speak of BOD in light of the Catechism necessitates a rejection - which is radical - of what most "Feeneyites" don't reject - a view of the Magisterium and its "indefectibility" on pre-Vatican II terms, such as the impossibility of the Ecclessia Docens to teach serious theological errors in propagating the Catholic faith. Most "Feeneyites" want to have their cake (rejection of BOD) and eat that too (the "indefectibility" of a Magisterium that has taught BOD in its catechisms, etc.).

    I say you can have one - rejection of BOD - but not the other (belief in the "indefectibility" of the universal teaching of the hierarchy on matters as essential to the Catholic faith as justification and the necessity of the actual receipt of the sacrament of baptism).

    I'll entertain with you or anyone else (as a former Feeneyite) the rejection of BOD, but not the acceptance of an "indefectible" Magisterium as traditionally understood. To do so would be to embrace a contradiction, which is incompatible with truth - which is the necessary condition (in my view, and indeed the dictate of infallible and "indefectible" logic/reason) for holding any belief. 

    Maybe it's just me, but that's my issue.  

    Happy Easter. 

    DR 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #439 on: April 09, 2023, 07:00:36 AM »
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  • Look, here's the bottom line for me. It's not a question of what I, you or anyone here thinks makes sense or what is right, but what God has determined to do. Has He determined to save men through water baptism alone since the promulgation of the Gospel, and determined that that is the sole way He will justify men and apply to them the Blood of Christ, without whom there is no redemption (Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapter 3)? John 3:5 can be read that way, and indeed some of the Fathers speak that way. As I have said, I was a former "Feeneyite" and am not adverse to that view (despite what some around here think).

    But it is ridiculous to argue, for example, that the Catechism of Trent doesn't speak of a BOD and therefore lend the authoritative, interpretive voice of the Church to the meaning of Session VI, Chapter 4 of the Counsel. Even the Dimonds recognize that the Catechism speaks of BOD, but reject it on other grounds. In my view, it's simply not credible to argue that the Catechism doesn't express BOD - kudos for the Dimonds for not making that weak argument.

    But to argue - as the Dimonds do - that the Council doesn't speak of BOD in light of the Catechism necessitates a rejection - which is radical - of what most "Feeneyites" don't reject - a view of the Magisterium and its "indefectibility" on pre-Vatican II terms, such as the impossibility of the Ecclessia Docens to teach serious theological errors in propagating the Catholic faith. Most "Feeneyites" want to have their cake (rejection of BOD) and eat that too (the "indefectibility" of a Magisterium that has taught BOD in its catechisms, etc.).

    I say you can have one - rejection of BOD - but not the other (belief in the "indefectibility" of the universal teaching of the hierarchy on matters as essential to the Catholic faith as justification and the necessity of the actual receipt of the sacrament of baptism).

    I'll entertain with you or anyone else (as a former Feeneyite) the rejection of BOD, but not the acceptance of an "indefectible" Magisterium as traditionally understood. To do so would be to embrace a contradiction, which is incompatible with truth - which is the necessary condition (in my view, and indeed the dictate of infallible and "indefectible" logic/reason) for holding any belief.

    Maybe it's just me, but that's my issue. 

    Happy Easter.

    DR

    Happy Easter.

    Before MHFM made their video on the Catechism of trent *teaching* BoD who used it as a talking point? From what I understand it was the dimonds who gave this false ammunition to BoDers.

    You are claiming that because both the council and catechism say BoD (they don't) then that's magisterium, that's totally wrong. I've seen how people argue about the passage in Trent. It is ambiguous on it's own but with context it's stating both laver and desire are needed.

    The Church has never defined BoD so how can you claim that I reject the magisterium? If you believe catechism or theologians make the magisterium then you must reject BoD as the early fathers did so.

    I'm not 100% sure on what you are trying to say because it doesn't make sense.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #440 on: April 09, 2023, 10:14:24 AM »
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  • But it is ridiculous to argue, for example, that the Catechism of Trent doesn't speak of a BOD and therefore lend the authoritative, interpretive voice of the Church to the meaning of Session VI, Chapter 4 of the Counsel. Even the Dimonds recognize that the Catechism speaks of BOD, but reject it on other grounds. 


    Now you suddenly cite the Dimonds an authority?  It's absolutely not "ridiculous to argue" this.  There's no mention of "BoD", no assertion that someone could die before the Sacrament and still be saved ... once we dispense with the absurd mistranslation to "accident".  It leaves open how God will take care of the person who's properly disposed to the Sacrament.  It could just as easily be read in the St. Fulgentius sense as in the "BoD" sense, and it's left open by the Catechism.  There's no statement, again, once you remove the ridiculous (and probably deliberate) mistranslation to "accident" (which in English implies death), that if someone were to die in this state they'd be saved.  Nothing close to that.  But BoDers insist on reading this into the text because it's what they want to see there.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #441 on: April 09, 2023, 10:24:50 AM »
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  • But to argue - as the Dimonds do - that the Council doesn't speak of BOD in light of the Catechism necessitates a rejection - which is radical - of what most "Feeneyites" don't reject - a view of the Magisterium and its "indefectibility" on pre-Vatican II terms, such as the impossibility of the Ecclessia Docens to teach serious theological errors in propagating the Catholic faith. Most "Feeneyites" want to have their cake (rejection of BOD) and eat that too (the "indefectibility" of a Magisterium that has taught BOD in its catechisms, etc.).


    You keep reasserting this notion over and over again, despite it having been completely debunked.  There's no indication whatsoever that the Catechism is "interpreting" the contested passage in Trent.  In fact, it's going completely off script, attempting to explain something that was not directly addressed in Trent, namely, why infant Baptism should not be delayed, but it's OK and even advisable to delay adult Baptism.  And, as mentioned, what the Catechism writes does NOT translate to BoD.  It simply states, almost as St. Ambrose did, regarding Valentinian, or St. Fulgentius did when he stated that God would keep someone alive until they could receive the Sacrament, that God will take care of a properly-disposed adult.  Nowhere does it state the BoD principle:  "If such a one were to die before the Sacrament, he would be saved."  There's nothing in there along those lines, despite how hard the BoDers try to read that into it.  We could be talking about a scenario where someone gets badly injured, and yet God keeps him alive long enough to receive the Sacrament.  We could be talking about St. Ambrose's concept regarding Valentinian, that he would be "washed" even if not crowned.  We don't know.  And Trent doesn't answer the question either about HOW God would take care of such an individual.  Once you take off the table the bad translation (probably deliberately bad, just like the "except through" translation of Trent) to "accident", which in English implies some kind of fatal mishap, but in the Latin does nothing of the sort, there's absolutely zero reference to the BoD thesis found in the Catechism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #442 on: April 09, 2023, 10:29:58 AM »
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  • But to argue - as the Dimonds do - that the Council doesn't speak of BOD in light of the Catechism necessitates a rejection - which is radical - of what most "Feeneyites" don't reject - a view of the Magisterium and its "indefectibility" on pre-Vatican II terms, such as the impossibility of the Ecclessia Docens to teach serious theological errors in propagating the Catholic faith. Most "Feeneyites" want to have their cake (rejection of BOD) and eat that too (the "indefectibility" of a Magisterium that has taught BOD in its catechisms, etc.).

    I say you can have one - rejection of BOD - but not the other (belief in the "indefectibility" of the universal teaching of the hierarchy on matters as essential to the Catholic faith as justification and the necessity of the actual receipt of the sacrament of baptism).

    Your hypocrisy here is disgraceful.  You claim that an Ecuмenical Council can teach grave error to the Church but now suddenly claim that in order to uphold the indefectibility of the Church, someone would have to maintain that theologians are infallible and indefectible.  It doesn't get any more absurd than this.  You strawman an extreme notion of infallibility, the same one that many radical dogmatic SVs hold, onto "Feeneyites" in general.  Most Feeneyites are actually R&R, and the Dimonds have a more balanced view of infallibility than the exaggerations made by most dogmatic SVs.  But implicit in this particular rant is your attempt to justify your heretical rejection of what you consider to be an Ecuмenical Council as having taught grave error, falsely attempting to equate an Ecuмenical Council with the consensus of some theologians.  So you're conflating a couple differen strammen here ot hypocritically promote your position.  And on top of that you keep begging the question that BoD is "taught" by the Magisterium, which it is most certainly not.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #443 on: April 09, 2023, 10:35:24 AM »
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  • 1) Trent itself cannot be interpreted as teaching BoD.
    2) Catechism of Trent does not teach BoD either, but leaves it open, how God would take care of well-disposed adult, and gives no indication of its being an interpretation of the contested passage in Trent.

    None of this is undone by the constant gratuitous re-statement of these claims by the BoDers, and the arguments for 1 and 2 above have not been refuted.

    This is typical of BoDer dishonesty, to simply keep restating their begged questions while refusing to address or refute the arguments presented against their opinions.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #444 on: April 09, 2023, 10:39:35 AM »
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  • Before MHFM made their video on the Catechism of trent *teaching* BoD who used it as a talking point? From what I understand it was the dimonds who gave this false ammunition to BoDers.

    Right, some of us disagree with the Dimonds on this point, and Decem is dishonest in somehow citing the Dimonds as an authority (one that he does not accept himself), claiming that we're in contradiction because we disagree with them on this point.  It's another dishonest logical fallacy.  I can't disagree with the Dimonds that the Catechism is not infallible, and yet I do disagree with them that the Catechism is teaching BoD.  They're wrong.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #445 on: April 10, 2023, 10:06:32 AM »
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  • And, as mentioned, what the Catechism writes does NOT translate to BoD.  It simply states, almost as St. Ambrose did, regarding Valentinian, or St. Fulgentius did when he stated that God would keep someone alive until they could receive the Sacrament, that God will take care of a properly-disposed adult.  Nowhere does it state the BoD principle:  "If such a one were to die before the Sacrament, he would be saved."  There's nothing in there along those lines, despite how hard the BoDers try to read that into it.  We could be talking about a scenario where someone gets badly injured, and yet God keeps him alive long enough to receive the Sacrament.  We could be talking about St. Ambrose's concept regarding Valentinian, that he would be "washed" even if not crowned.  We don't know.  And Trent doesn't answer the question either about HOW God would take care of such an individual.  Once you take off the table the bad translation (probably deliberately bad, just like the "except through" translation of Trent) to "accident", which in English implies some kind of fatal mishap, but in the Latin does nothing of the sort, there's absolutely zero reference to the BoD thesis found in the Catechism.

    You're a clown. You keep repeating the same old arguments that have been addressed over and over.

    The evidence is far stronger that the Catechism refers to BOD. We have roughly contemporaneous statements after the Catechism of Trent (1566) that come out for BOD, and I've posted them in this thread.

    First, the so-called catechism of St. Robert Bellarmine (pub. 1598):


    Quote
    The necessity of Baptism is so great that if anyone were to die without reception of Baptism, or at least desire for it, he could by no means enter heaven. Because infants are liable to danger of this sort, and can easily die, but still do not have capacities to desire Baptism, therefore it is necessary to baptize them as soon as possible. And although they do not understand that which they receive, nevertheless, the Church supplies that which it responds and pledges for them by means of the godparents, which suffices. Just as by Adam we have all fallen into sin and disfavor with God when we still did not know it, so also it is enough for God if, through Baptism and the Church, we are freed from sin and received in its grace even if we do not yet notice.

    Anyone of good will can see how that fits in with the Catechism, also speaking in the context of no delay of baptism for infants, unlike the situation with adults - just like in the Catechism.

    And here's the annotation of John 3:5 from the Rheims NT of 1582:


    Quote
    5. Born again of Water.] As no man can enter into this world nor have his life and being in the same, except he be born of his carnal parents: no more can a man enter into the life and state of grace which is in Christ, or attain to life everlasting, unless he be born and baptized of water and the Holy Ghost. Whereby we see first, this Sacrament to be called our regeneration or second birth, in respect of our natural and carnal which was before. Secondly, that this sacrament consisteth of an external element of water, and internal virtue of the Holy Spirit: Wherein it excelleth John's baptism, which had the external element, but not the spiritual grace. Thirdly, that no man can enter into the Kingdom of God, nor into the fellowship of Holy Church, without it.



    Whereby the *Pelagians, and Calvinists be condemned, that promise life everlasting to young children that die without baptism, and all other that think only their faith to serve, or the external element of water superfluous or not necessary: our Saviour's words being plain and general. Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remediless necessity could not obtain it. Lastly, it is proved that this Sacrament giveth grace ex opere operator, that is, of the work itself (which all Protestants deny) because it so breedeth our spiritual life in God, as our carnal birth giveth the life of the world.
     

    Now let's look at the Catechism:


    Quote
    Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed

    The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

    . . .


    Baptism Of Adults


    With regard to those of adult age who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, namely, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out that a different manner of proceeding should be followed. To them the Christian faith is to be proposed; and they are earnestly to be exhorted, persuaded and invited to embrace it.

    They Should Not Delay Their Baptism Unduly

    If converted to the Lord God, they are then to be admonished not to defer the Sacrament of Baptism beyond the time prescribed by the Church. For since it is written, delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day, they are to be taught that in their regard perfect conversion consists in regeneration by Baptism. Besides, the longer they defer Baptism, the longer are they deprived of the use and graces of the other Sacraments, by which the Christian religion is practised, since the other Sacraments are accessible through Baptism only.

    They are also deprived of the abundant fruits of Baptism, the waters of which not only wash away all the stains and defilements of past sins, but also enrich us with divine grace which enables us to avoid sin for the future and preserve righteousness and innocence, which constitute the sum of a Christian life, as all can easily understand.

    Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once

    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

    Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

    Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament.

    And earlier I cited Magisterial references with regard to "no other remedy" other than sacramental baptism language for infants, which, again, for someone honest and of good will, has the obvious implication of a possible remedy for non-infants:


    Quote
    Council of Florence, from the Bull, Cantate Domino

    Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people, but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently, but so ,that, when danger of death is imminent, they be baptized in the form of the Church, early without delay, even by a layman or woman, if a priest should be lacking, just as is contained more fully in the decree of the Armenians. (Dz 712)

    Compare that with the Catechism, again:


    Quote
    Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed


    The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

    And with what was said by Pius XII centuries later in his address to midwives:



    Quote
    An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism; to the still unborn or newly born this way is not open.

    Any one of good will can put this all together and see the consistency BOD has with this, and how indeed it is reasonable, more reasonable, to read the Catechism as referring to BOD.

    None of the authority you cite is after the Catechism of Trent. You refer to Canisius's Catechism published in the mid-1550s before the Roman Catechism, and to a St. Fulgentius quote many centuries before.

    The facts are what they are. Let each reach their conclusions on the basis of the evidence and arguments, and there are plenty for BOD - in fact, all the evidence after the Catechism of Trent of any weight whatsoever.

    DR



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #446 on: April 10, 2023, 11:10:17 AM »
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  • Decem,
    The catechism isn't infallible.  It can't be looked at as a "interpretation" of a council.  That's not it's purpose and you're using this tool for the wrong job.

    Secondly, to get a clear view of this catechism, we'd have to go back to the original latin.  As has been proven many times, once things get "translated" from latin into vernacular languages, the opportunity for corruption/liberalism is great.  One only has to use the "for many (latin)" and "for all (english)" heresy as an example.  But such mis-translations/additions also happened way back in the 1600s.

    Even then, no one is obligated to read, own or believe a catechism.  I've never read Trent's catechism and I don't plan to.  And this won't affect my salvation at all.  Which means, a catechism isn't "doctrinal" (if it was, i'd have to give unquestionable assent to it) nor is it as important as you make it out to be.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #447 on: April 10, 2023, 11:32:50 AM »
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  • Decem,
    The catechism isn't infallible.  It can't be looked at as a "interpretation" of a council.  That's not it's purpose and you're using this tool for the wrong job.

    Secondly, to get a clear view of this catechism, we'd have to go back to the original latin.  As has been proven many times, once things get "translated" from latin into vernacular languages, the opportunity for corruption/liberalism is great.  One only has to use the "for many (latin)" and "for all (english)" heresy as an example.  But such mis-translations/additions also happened way back in the 1600s.

    Even then, no one is obligated to read, own or believe a catechism.  I've never read Trent's catechism and I don't plan to.  And this won't affect my salvation at all.  Which means, a catechism isn't "doctrinal" (if it was, i'd have to give unquestionable assent to it) nor is it as important as you make it out to be.

    Agreed on every point.  Catechism isn't infallible.  As for using Catechism as somehow interpreting the passage on justification / votum, there's no indication that the Catechism is doing that at all.  Catechism is MUCH larger and has a much wider scope than the Council itself, going onto all kinds of subjects not taught in Trent.  Finally, there's no statement whatsoever in the Catechism of the core BoD principle, namely, that if someone dies without the Sacrament he can be saved.  This implication of "death" comes solely from the English translation to the word "accident", which in English might connote a fatal accident, although that's not certainly the case either.  There's a desire to read BoD into the passages from the Catechism, but the Catechism is merely stating that while one should not defer the Sacrament for infants, it's OK and even advisable to delay it somewhat for adults because God will make sure that properly disposed adults are not deprived of what it is they desire or seek.  Catechism is silent about how, whether it's in the sense of BoD or in the sense indicated by St. Fulgentius in his very similar passage (where God would keep them alive until they can receive the Sacrament if they truly have the proper dispositions) or even in the sense of St. Amborse about Valentinian (where they would be washed even if not crowned).  Catechism let that part open, as all it intended to teach was why it's OK to defer Baptism for adults but not for infants.  As to how God's Providence will work it out, the Catechism leaves it up to God.  As Stubborn pointed out, a scenario where someone has a serious illness or injury before their scheduled Baptism but then God's Providence brings them a priest or some other Catholic to confer the Sacrament before he dies, keeping him alive just long enough for them to receive the Sacrament.

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #448 on: April 20, 2023, 12:20:29 AM »
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  • As for your Valentinian spam, St. Ambrose likened this state to that of unbaptized martyrs, but says of the martyrs also that they are "washed but not crowned".  In other words, St. Ambrose believed that this piety/zeal/confession could remit or wash sin but it could not result in "crowning", i.e. entering the Kingdom of Heaven and the Beatific Vision.  In other words, a justification without salvation ... just as Father Feeney held.

    So, fail on the Valentinian quote.
    Before saying that St. Ambrose denies BoD, you must understand regeneration, the infusion of grace, what justification is and has been taught to be, and take the full context of the quote. MHFM conveniently cuts off the part where Ambrose prays for Valerians salvation.

    51) But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request?* But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified his desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7).
    (52) Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to Thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected … He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace?
    (53) Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.

    - What is St. Ambrose saying? That those who died without receiving baptism by water have received grace and been justified/washed through their desire or shedding of blood. Objection: What about the statement underlined? This statement in my view was said by St. Ambrose to comfort those who are in attendance. What he is saying could be taken to mean: If no one without water baptism can be saved, then the Martyrs aren't saved... but clearly the Martys were saved.

    You seem, along with Fr. Feeney to believe that the infusion of grace that happens at the same time as justification does not save. So a man can have sanctifying grace from God... and be in hell?

    Read below from Trent to learn what justification is.
    Justification:
    IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
    This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]



    Notes: A man is no longer an enemy of God, but is now a friend of God and an heir to life everlasting in a state of Justification. Right here you see: Justification is NOT just a forgiveness of sins but is SANCTIFICATION and RENEWAL through the RECEPTION OF GRACE





    The causes of this justification are:
    the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one's disposition and cooperation.


    For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity.

    For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.[39]

    For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead[40] and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circuмcision availeth anything nor uncircuмcision, but faith that worketh by charity.[41]

    This faith, conformably to Apostolic tradition, catechumens ask of the Church before the sacrament of baptism, when they ask for the faith that gives eternal life, which without hope and charity faith cannot give.

    Whence also they hear immediately the word of Christ:
    If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[42]

    Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are commanded, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe[43] given them through Christ Jesus in place of that which Adam by his disobedience lost for himself and for us, so that they may bear it before the tribunal of our Lord Jesus Christ and may have life eternal.



    Spotless after justification, and if they persevere in this state they will have eternal life... Meaning if they die in that just state they go to Heaven.

    Ch 14
    Hence, it must be taught that the repentance of a Christian after his fall is very different from that at his baptism, and that it includes not only a determination to avoid sins and a hatred of them, or a contrite and humble heart,[85] but also the sacramental confession of those sins, at least in desire, to be made in its season, and sacerdotal absolution, as well as satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers and other devout exercises of the spiritual life, not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is, together with the guilt, remitted either by the sacrament or by the desire of the sacrament, but for the temporal punishment which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Ghost[86] and have not feared to violate the temple of God.[87]
    Punishment is WHOLLY remitted in baptism

    Fr. Feeney:
    Question: If you got into the state of justification with the aid of Baptism of Desire, and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved?

    Answer: Never (p. 121).



    herefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."


    Your statement is not only condemned by Trent that Justification and Salvation are separate, but also disproven in detail by Aquinas. The bold statement is your exact claim.

    Article 2. Whether the infusion of grace is required for the remission of guilt, i.e. for the justification of the ungodly?


    Objection 1. It would seem that for the remission of guilt, which is the justification of the ungodly, no infusion of grace is required. For anyone may be moved from one contrary without being led to the other, if the contraries are not immediate. Now the state of guilt and the state of grace are not immediate contraries; for there is the middle state of innocence wherein a man has neither grace nor guilt. Hence a man may be pardoned his guilt without his being brought to a state of grace.



    I answer that, by sinning a man offends God as stated above (I-II:71:5). Now an offense is remitted to anyone, only when the soul of the offender is at peace with the offended. Hence sin is remitted to us, when God is at peace with us, and this peace consists in the love whereby God loves us. Now God's love, considered on the part of the Divine act, is eternal and unchangeable; whereas, as regards the effect it imprints on us, it is sometimes interrupted, inasmuch as we sometimes fall short of it and once more require it. Now the effect of the Divine love in us, which is taken away by sin, is grace, whereby a man is made worthy of eternal life, from which sin shuts him out. Hence we could not conceive the remission of guilt, without the infusion of grace.


    Reply to Objection 1. More is required for an offender to pardon an offense, than for one who has committed no offense, not to be hated. For it may happen amongst men that one man neither hates nor loves another. But if the other offends him, then the forgiveness of the offense can only spring from a special goodwill. Now God's goodwill is said to be restored to man by the gift of grace; and hence although a man before sinning may be without grace and without guilt, yet that he is without guilt after sinning can only be because he has grace.

    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #449 on: April 20, 2023, 12:34:07 AM »
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  • 51) But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request?* But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified his desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7).
    (52) Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to Thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected … He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace?
    (53) Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.

    Above is the full quote. Look below to see how dishonest the cut up quote that MHFM posted on their site is:

    St. Ambrose, 
    Funeral Oration of Valentinian, 4th century: “But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacraments of baptism.  Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request?  But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come to Italy, he would be initiated… Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested?  And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wis. 4:7)… Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and desire have washed him, also.”[1]
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us