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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64264 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #430 on: April 08, 2023, 07:30:04 AM »
Another interesting point is that this here is the very end of the "dispositions" or "beginnings" of justification section, before the "justification itself follows", with the Sacrament being the instrumental cause.
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finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.

This is a part of the preparation, and "justification itself" comes AFTER this, via Baptism.  According to BoDer theory, justification itself should happen right here with the resolve to receive Baptism.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #431 on: April 08, 2023, 07:34:39 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 08, 2023, 07:11:42 AM
But Trent's citation of Our Lord's teaching immediately disambiguates the passage.

No, it doesn't, Ladislaus. You're arguing with Catholics here. Every Catholic Bible with annotations of the passage, every saint or doctor who has a commentary on the passage, every saint or doctor that has discussed the issue of BOD . . . they all to a man disagree with you.

They are not "irrelevant sources."

You can disagree, and give reasons, but you cannot, in the context of every fellow Catholic whom you revere as a saint, in the context of every annotation in whatever Catholic Bible you read, say Trent "disambiguates" the passage by citing a passage none of those sources finds disambiguating to justification by desire alone.

What Trent does "disambiguate," explicitly, and not by merely quoting a Biblical passage that you read as disambiguating, but in its own words and explication, is your notion that a man can be justified without being reborn or regenerated in Christ:

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Session VI, Chapter III.
 


Who are justified through Christ.

But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His [Page 32] death, but
those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if
they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing
that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as
their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing
that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the
grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to
give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints
in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the
Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.

How can you point to Trent as "disambiguating" in support of your anti-BOD argument by merely citing a verse that every other Catholic commentator doesn't find "disambiguating" and hold to a view that is point blank shot down by Trent in its own authoritative words of explication is beyond me.


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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #432 on: April 08, 2023, 07:43:25 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 08, 2023, 07:30:04 AM
Another interesting point is that this here is the very end of the "dispositions" or "beginnings" of justification section, before the "justification itself follows", with the Sacrament being the instrumental cause.
This is a part of the preparation, and "justification itself" comes AFTER this, via Baptism.  According to BoDer theory, justification itself should happen right here with the resolve to receive Baptism.

As I noted in the language of Trent itself, it says "in adults" there is a period of preparation before receipt of the sacrament, referring to the period of catechesis before baptism. There is, again, a distinction being made between adults and infants - as there is in the "other means" or "other remedy" language of the Catechism, Florence, and Pius XII - this time in terms of the administration of the sacrament. 

You've convinced yourself that BOD is a phantom, that's all.  
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #433 on: April 08, 2023, 07:50:50 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on April 08, 2023, 07:34:39 AM
No, it doesn't, Ladislaus. You're arguing with Catholics here. Every Catholic Bible with annotations of the passage, every saint or doctor who has a commentary on the passage, every saint or doctor that has discussed the issue of BOD . . . they all to a man disagree with you.

For everyone else here who's of good will, behold.  Here's the "logical" refutation of the arguments present.  "No it doesn't ..." 

Oh, it most certainly does, for the reasons stated, and the reasons stand unrefuted.  Nobody's denying that later theologians mostly accepted BoD, but that's really ALL that you guys have because you can't refute the actual arguments made.  None of these sources went into any in-depth analyzing this text of Trent but at best mentioned it in a footnote.  Of "all" these theologians, Father Cekada found about 2 dozen in the 500+ years in Trent that even mentioned BoD, the majority of which merely mentioned BoD in passing, as in, "Yep.  BoD."  And the rest merely referred to it in a footnote.

Of course, you ignore St. Peter Canisius again in claiming "to a man", since St. Peter (a theologian who spoke at Trent) cites a footnote to Trent for his statement that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for adults, followed by 2 citations from Church Fathers explicitly excluding even devout Catechumens.  Why would St. Peter juxtapose this passage from Trent with 2 citations from Church Fathers denying BoD for Catechumens if he interpreted this passage as teaching BoD?  Eh?

Be that as it may, the arguments stand unrefuted as we see more distracting chaff from the BoDers.
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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #434 on: April 08, 2023, 08:03:01 AM »


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Why would St. Peter juxtapose this passage from Trent with 2 citations from Church Fathers denying BoD for Catechumens if he interpreted this passage as teaching BoD?  Eh?
St Athansius was “against the world” when he stood up against the Arian heresy.  Is St Peter one of the only post-Trent saints to stand against the BOD folly?  It appears so.  


The fact that St Peter quoted the Church Farhers shows he did his research.  Most people who look at this subject (including St Thomas) simply quote St Augustine (superficially, since he recanted) and move on.  But having a large majority of the Church Fathers being anti-BOD is much, much stronger than a quote from any catechism or the pre-Modernsist, Pope Pius XII.

Church Fathers for the win.  
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