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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64334 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #390 on: April 06, 2023, 06:10:24 AM »
What's going on in Acts 10:47 as pertains to this thread? The gentiles having received the Holy Ghost before being baptized with water.

It's very simple.  As Trent taught, it's the activity of the Holy Ghost that disposes the soul to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.  In addition, the Holy Ghost manifested Himself there by having the Gentiles speak in tongues.  This was meant to teach St. Peter and the Apostoles that Baptism was not to be witheld from the uncircuмcised.  Simply because the Holy Ghost manifested Himself among the Gentiles by their speaking in tongues to teach the Apostles about circuмcision not being a requirement for Baptism, this does not mean that they were at that time justified or would have bee saved had they died right then and there without having received Baptism.  Recall that Our Lord taught that we must be born again of the Holy Ghost AND water in order to enter the Kingdom.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #391 on: April 06, 2023, 06:17:33 AM »
I would just like to point out the errors in logic of Angelus' 2 sentences, in red, above.  He's saying that Trent didn't say belief in the Trinity/Incarnation is necessary for justification.  But the entire Chapter VI paragraph is full of words/phrases which reference these 2 doctrines.  (See words in bold).

As far as I've seen on this thread, Angelus refused to answer the question about whether he holds that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for justification / salvation.  Let's say we grant that Trent did not say whether this belief had to be explicit.  In that case, by saying either yes or no, Angelus would not be "contradicting Trent", so he could have answered the question without fear of contradicting Trent.  So this was a ruse to avoid having to answer the question.

So, what of it, Angelus, yes or no, is explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation necessary for salvation?  If you refuse to answer again, I will proceed as if your answer is no ... since there's no other explanation for your refusal to answer.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #392 on: April 06, 2023, 06:19:44 AM »
I used to think that the justification / salvation distinction originated with Father Feeney.

But a number of post-Tridentine theologians also made this distinction, most notably the Dominican theologian Melchior Cano.

Cano held that infidels could be justified through implicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, but they could not be saved through this implicit faith.  So he too distinguished between justification and salvation.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #393 on: April 06, 2023, 10:12:35 AM »
I used to think that the justification / salvation distinction originated with Father Feeney.

But a number of post-Tridentine theologians also made this distinction, most notably the Dominican theologian Melchior Cano.

Cano held that infidels could be justified through implicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, but they could not be saved through this implicit faith.  So he too distinguished between justification and salvation.

That's been broadly "floated" around here, but there's never been anything close to any real evidence of that. The only name that has been thrown out there as taking this position is Cano, and I have challenged that:


https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/john-35-defined-as-dogma-at-trent-theologian-admits-(video)/msg843665/#msg843665

As I said before, I think the Council of Trent is quite clear: "if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified."

I'd be shocked if a "Post-Tridentine" theologian expressed thoughts on justification without taking into account that language and Trent's definitive treatment of the subject. That would be inexcusable.


Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #394 on: April 06, 2023, 12:02:46 PM »
Well, marriage can be confected by votum.  In fact, the votum is the essential component there.


Agreed, but it might be added that marriage is confected when there is a vota, a verbal exchange of both vows.  The interesting thing with marriage, if the would-be-husband died right after the words, "I take thee...," would there have been a marriage?  Because although not verbally expressed, the would-be-wife had the "intention" to express the words.