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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64340 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #370 on: April 04, 2023, 09:01:24 PM »
Everytime I try to play "devil's advocate" and see if BOD fits, there's just holes in that block of cheese.  I can't make it work.  If one reads the entirety of Trent, the council does a good job of closing the loopholes.  But one only sees all the loopholes if you read Trent holistically.  If you pull out this phrase or that sentence, out of context, you can make it say anything.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #371 on: April 04, 2023, 10:02:47 PM »
So say you and Stubborn, etc. Yet if there can't be justification without both the water AND the desire, what about children? They are justified by the water, and do not have the desire. Yet they are justified.
From what I understand. Both the desire of Church and that of the parents/godparents suffice for desire in regards to children


15And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them. Which when the disciples saw, they rebuked them.
 16 But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Amen, I say to you: Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a child, shall not enter into it.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #372 on: April 04, 2023, 11:06:02 PM »
Everytime I try to play "devil's advocate" and see if BOD fits, there's just holes in that block of cheese.  I can't make it work.  If one reads the entirety of Trent, the council does a good job of closing the loopholes.  But one only sees all the loopholes if you read Trent holistically.  If you pull out this phrase or that sentence, out of context, you can make it say anything.

Very true.  I used to believe in BoD because I had been under the impression that Trent taught it.  So one day I sat down and read both Sessions V and VI in the original Latin, and realized that Trent was not teaching BoD in any way, shape, or form.  This was not the intent of its teaching.  It was teaching about how the Sacraments work, through a cooperation of the ex opere operato effect of the Sacrament and the cooperation of free will (related to votum) with grace.  There was no intent here to teach the so-called alleged "Three Baptisms".  You would have expected a mention of the Third, but Trent's text, if read the BoDer way, would rule out a third Baptism that did not simply reduce to votum.  I read it over and over again and there was simply no way for me to squeeze "BoD" into the teaching.  Trent didn't rule it out either, but it clearly wasn't teaching it.

But when individuals take that famous passage out of context, leave out the quotation from Our Lord, and use the grossly mistranslated "except through", then and ONLY then can you see "BoD" in Trent.

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #373 on: April 05, 2023, 05:55:49 AM »
Very true.  I used to believe in BoD because I had been under the impression that Trent taught it.  So one day I sat down and read both Sessions V and VI in the original Latin, and realized that Trent was not teaching BoD in any way, shape, or form.  This was not the intent of its teaching.  It was teaching about how the Sacraments work, through a cooperation of the ex opere operato effect of the Sacrament and the cooperation of free will (related to votum) with grace.  There was no intent here to teach the so-called alleged "Three Baptisms".  You would have expected a mention of the Third, but Trent's text, if read the BoDer way, would rule out a third Baptism that did not simply reduce to votum.  I read it over and over again and there was simply no way for me to squeeze "BoD" into the teaching.  Trent didn't rule it out either, but it clearly wasn't teaching it.

But when individuals take that famous passage out of context, leave out the quotation from Our Lord, and use the grossly mistranslated "except through", then and ONLY then can you see "BoD" in Trent.

It's just in every catechism, Catholic encyclopedia for the last 500 years, various writings of popes for hundreds of years.  But everyone missed it.  That's truly miraculous, why do you think it worked out that way? 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #374 on: April 05, 2023, 06:19:17 AM »
It's just in every catechism, Catholic encyclopedia for the last 500 years, various writings of popes for hundreds of years.  But everyone missed it.  That's truly miraculous, why do you think it worked out that way?
You can actually answer by asking yourself why you yourself do not see the contradiction that *the opinion* of a BOD presents.