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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64381 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #315 on: April 03, 2023, 07:13:23 PM »

Quote
Stop trying to weasel out of this.  Yes or no.  Is explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation necessary for justification?
I can’t believe you won’t answer this, Angelus.  This is a very basic question.  Shame on you.  

Online Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #316 on: April 03, 2023, 07:22:15 PM »
I can’t believe you won’t answer this, Angelus.  This is a very basic question.  Shame on you. 

We probably both know why he won't answer it.


Offline trad123

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #317 on: April 03, 2023, 07:26:21 PM »
Hopefully this venn diagram shows up, I've also attached it.

Regarding cannon 30,  if the statement “to every repentant sinner” includes both those who receive the grace of justification, whether it be in Baptism or Penance, then both are repentant sinners.

One cannot say all repentant sinners are without the debt of temporal punishment, as that would only apply to the newly baptized.












Online Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #318 on: April 03, 2023, 07:29:36 PM »
If the Church actually taught that BoD was not possible (as many on this thread claim), then that same Church would be the cause of countless souls going to Hell for lack of the Sacrament when they die before the Sacrament has been received.

Unbelievable.  Are you even a Catholic?  ... as if God could be constrained by "impossibility" from bringing the Sacrament to His elect.

No to mention that this is utterly idiotic.  So if the Church taught that BoD is not possible, the CHURCH would CAUSE "countless souls to go to Hell"?  Ridiculous.  So, by teaching, EENS, the Church is CAUSING countless souls to go to Hell?  By teaching that fornication is a mortal sin, the Church is CAUSING countless souls to go to Hell?  Hey, maybe if the Church would stop teaching that fornication is a mortal sin, that way more souls can be saved.  Are you out of your mind?

St. Augustine taught that those who "wish to be Catholic" cannot use this line of reasoning.  Of course, you take it a step further by blaming the Church for countless souls going to Hell simply for teaching what God has revealed.

This here is, BTW, precisely why Angelus refuses to answer the previous question.

Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #319 on: April 03, 2023, 07:30:17 PM »
I can’t believe you won’t answer this, Angelus.  This is a very basic question.  Shame on you. 

CHAPTER VI.

The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.
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I thought my previous answer would be obvious enough. The quote above from the Council of Trent does not mention belief (explicit or implicit) in "the Holy Trinty" or in "the Incarnation." So, according the the Fathers of the Council of Trent, belief in those two things would not be necessary for "justification." On that question, I would not dare to contradict Trent.