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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64441 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #310 on: April 03, 2023, 05:26:36 PM »
The answer to your question about what kind of "faith" is required for Justification is in the passage on "Preparation" that we had discussed earlier from Session 6, Chapter 6:

I follow what Trent says.

Stop trying to weasel out of this.  Yes or no.  Is explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation necessary for justification?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #311 on: April 03, 2023, 05:31:05 PM »
My reading of the text ("the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" from Trent Session 6, chapter 4) is supported by commentary from St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Alphonsus, by the Catechism of Trent, and by the "common opinion" of the theologians as discussed in Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

Which Catholic theologians, teaching with an imprimatur, after the Council of Trent support your position?

St. Peter Canisius, Doctor of the Church who who present and spoke twice at Trent.  In his catechism, when he states that Baptism is necessary for adults and infants, by adults he has a footnotes that references Trent and two passage from the Church Fathers, both of which explicitly state that even good Catechumens cannot be saved if they died before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism.

Apart from that, defend YOUR "reading of the text".  Neither theologians nor Doctors nor Church Fathers (except the latter in unanimity) are infallible.

But, you can't and you won't, because you don't want to consider the matter honestly.  You've already made up your mind about what you want to believe on this subject.


Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #312 on: April 03, 2023, 06:03:32 PM »
St. Peter Canisius, Doctor of the Church who who present and spoke twice at Trent.  In his catechism, when he states that Baptism is necessary for adults and infants, by adults he has a footnotes that references Trent and two passage from the Church Fathers, both of which explicitly state that even good Catechumens cannot be saved if they died before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism.

Apart from that, defend YOUR "reading of the text".  Neither theologians nor Doctors nor Church Fathers (except the latter in unanimity) are infallible.

But, you can't and you won't, because you don't want to consider the matter honestly.  You've already made up your mind about what you want to believe on this subject.

Canisius is speaking "generally" in that passage from his Catechism. He is not considering all of the theological corner-cases that are too much in the weeds for his target audience. He was writing a catechism for adolescents, as you can see in the title of his work "Summa doctrinæ christianæ . . . in usum Christianæ pueritiæ." A catechism directed at adolescents is not the place to go into detail on BoD.

You might want to cross that one off your list.


Now, the Catechism of Trent, IS directed at a higher-level, more mature audience, specifically Pastors and Priests. It does discuss BoD:

"...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentence for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Unlike the Canisius catechism, the Roman Catechism was officially promulgated by the Universal Church and guaranteed to be free to essential error.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #313 on: April 03, 2023, 06:22:18 PM »
Now, the Catechism of Trent, IS directed at a higher-level, more mature audience, specifically Pastors and Priests. It does discuss BoD:

"...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentence for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Unlike the Canisius catechism, the Roman Catechism was officially promulgated by the Universal Church and guaranteed to be free to essential error.
Read the title of the thread and read through the start of the thread. The Catechism does not teach BoD and is certainly not infallible as it was only intended for pastors and not the entire Church, no catechism is infallible.

Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #314 on: April 03, 2023, 06:53:55 PM »
Read the title of the thread and read through the start of the thread. The Catechism does not teach BoD and is certainly not infallible as it was only intended for pastors and not the entire Church, no catechism is infallible.

And the title of the thread and the post at the start of the thread are misleading. I prove what I say with the actual evidence from the Catechism, so that those "with eyes to see" will not be misled. Here is the quote again from the Catechism of Trent:

"...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentence for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

The quote is taken from the Part on "The Sacraments," the Chapter on "Baptism," the Section on "Necessity of Baptism," and the second to last Sub-section titled "Ordinarily They [adults] Are Not Baptized At Once."

The bolded quote above is explaining why the Church practice of delaying adult baptism until a suitable time is not dangerous to the soul of the catechumen. 

If the Church actually taught that BoD was not possible (as many on this thread claim), then that same Church would be the cause of countless souls going to Hell for lack of the Sacrament when they die before the Sacrament has been received. But, of course, the Church does not teach what some on this thread claim it teaches. That is why the Church waits when adults are to be baptized and no one worries about it.

It is infallible Ordinary and Universal Magisterium that the "desire for the [bath of regeneration]" is sufficient to justify the soul of the catechumen. The practice agrees with the doctrine.