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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41264 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #300 on: April 03, 2023, 03:44:57 PM »
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  • That's all fine and dandy but Trent doesn't explain any of this.  So Ott's explanation is purely speculative.
    What Trent definitely teaches is that there is something called "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" that confers "justification" on the soul having such a "desire." This is the concept of BoD within the context of the docuмents from the Council of Trent. That there is such a thing as BoD and that it deals with "justification" is part of the infallible Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

    You are correct that Trent does not discuss the all the details of BoD at length. So, the precise details surrounding BoD are in the realm of "theological opinion." There is room for discussion about those details within limits.

    But there is no room for discussion about whether BoD per se is orthodox or heretical. BoD, understood at least to the extent described in the Trent "Decree on Justification," is orthodox. To claim that BoD, as Trent uses the phrase, is "heretical" would be to deny the authority of the Council of Trent.

    And to say that "Ott's explanation is purely speculative" is baseless. In fact, it is the "common opinion" of Church theologians, which is why Ott included it in his textbook anyway. The "purely speculative" opinions on BoD are from those, with no formal theological training or authority, who refuse to accept the "common opinion" of the Church theologians prior to VII.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #301 on: April 03, 2023, 04:23:04 PM »
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  • Quote
    So, the precise details surrounding BoD are in the realm of "theological opinion."
    First you said this.

    Quote
    And to say that "Ott's explanation is purely speculative" is baseless.
    Then you said this.

    Do you not see the contradiction?  If we don't know the details (which you affirmed), then someone who attempts to provide details (Ott), through an explanation, is speaking speculatively (Ott's attempt = speculation).

    :laugh1:  You guys are so hell-bent on blindly defending this "doctrine" that you're not reading plain english


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #302 on: April 03, 2023, 04:38:32 PM »
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  • What Trent definitely teaches is that there is something called "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" that confers "justification" on the soul having such a "desire."

    False.  That's precisely what we're debating here and disagreeing with, and you're just restating your opinion.

    You've not addressed any of the solid arguments against your position but simply keep restating it.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #303 on: April 03, 2023, 04:43:06 PM »
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  • As I've pointed out, there are two possible readings of the crucial text.  We're debating which one is better.

    Even IF the BoDer interpretation is correct (and there's no way I see it because, as I pointed out, the logical corollary is a heresy), Trent would be saying that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire.  Trent never taught that justification can happen by the desire alone, but is effectively saying that you have to have the Sacrament AT LEAST IN DESIRE (leaving open the possibility).  There's nowhere any positive teaching in that regard, that the desire alone suffices.  In other words, it would be saying that you have to say that the Sacrament is necessary at least in desire to avoid the heresy of denying the necessity of the Sacrament.

    But the BoDer intepretation is certainly false.  If you say that justification can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament, that's the very heresy being condemned throughout the treatise on justification.

    "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  This means that I CAN write a letter WITHOUT a pen (if I have a pencil).  CAN I be justified WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism?  Absolutely not.  Even if you believe in BoD, you can't say that this magical "BoD" process can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #304 on: April 03, 2023, 04:54:59 PM »
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  • First you said this.
    Then you said this.

    Do you not see the contradiction?  If we don't know the details (which you affirmed), then someone who attempts to provide details (Ott), through an explanation, is speaking speculatively (Ott's attempt = speculation).

    :laugh1:  You guys are so hell-bent on blindly defending this "doctrine" that you're not reading plain english

    There is no contradiction. To say that subject matter, like the precise details of BoD, are in the realm of "theological opinion" is to say that it is not "infallible or official Magisterium." 

    In the realm of "theological opinion" there are different degrees of certainty. A "common opinion" of the theologians is equivalent to saying the teaching is "settled" and not disputed by authoritative theologians who have discussed the concept. 

    To say something is "purely speculative" implies that the concept either has little rational basis or that there is little agreement among those authorized by the Church to determine such things. That is not the case with the concept of BoD. Ott was not pronouncing his own opinion. He was summarizing the "common opinion" of the authoritative theologians.

    BoD per se (i.e., that there is such a thing as BoD) is infallible Magisterium. Certain details surrounding the concept of BoD have been officially pronounced (e.g., that it pertains to "justification" and is not identical to the Sacrament of Baptism). Other details surrounding the concept of BoD have not been officially added to the Magisterium, but have been logically "settled" by authoritative theologians.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #305 on: April 03, 2023, 04:56:20 PM »
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  • BoD per se (i.e., that there is such a thing as BoD) is infallible Magisterium.

    False.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #306 on: April 03, 2023, 04:59:49 PM »
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  • Other details surrounding the concept of BoD have not been officially added to the Magisterium, but have been logically "settled" by authoritative theologians.

    Also false.  Not only do theologians not "settle" anything (as they're not part of the Ecclesia Dicens), the theologians remain in disagreement on the most fundamental points about BoD.  We have no idea what it is, and we cannot give our assent to a vague ill-defined concept, only to propositions.

    So, let me ask you this. Is the requirement of explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation and Our Lord Jesus Christ necessary for justification?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #307 on: April 03, 2023, 05:06:30 PM »
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  • As I've pointed out, there are two possible readings of the crucial text.  We're debating which one is better.

    Even IF the BoDer interpretation is correct (and there's no way I see it because, as I pointed out, the logical corollary is a heresy), Trent would be saying that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire.  Trent never taught that justification can happen by the desire alone, but is effectively saying that you have to have the Sacrament AT LEAST IN DESIRE (leaving open the possibility).  There's nowhere any positive teaching in that regard, that the desire alone suffices.  In other words, it would be saying that you have to say that the Sacrament is necessary at least in desire to avoid the heresy of denying the necessity of the Sacrament.

    But the BoDer intepretation is certainly false.  If you say that justification can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament, that's the very heresy being condemned throughout the treatise on justification.

    "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  This means that I CAN write a letter WITHOUT a pen (if I have a pencil).  CAN I be justified WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism?  Absolutely not.  Even if you believe in BoD, you can't say that this magical "BoD" process can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament.

    My reading of the text ("the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" from Trent Session 6, chapter 4) is supported by commentary from St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Alphonsus, by the Catechism of Trent, and by the "common opinion" of the theologians as discussed in Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

    Which Catholic theologians, teaching with an imprimatur, after the Council of Trent support your position? 


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #308 on: April 03, 2023, 05:14:42 PM »
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  • So, let me ask you this. Is the requirement of explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation and Our Lord Jesus Christ necessary for justification?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #309 on: April 03, 2023, 05:21:06 PM »
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  • Also false.  Not only do theologians not "settle" anything (as they're not part of the Ecclesia Dicens), the theologians remain in disagreement on the most fundamental points about BoD.  We have no idea what it is, and we cannot give our assent to a vague ill-defined concept, only to propositions.

    So, let me ask you this. Is the requirement of explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation and Our Lord Jesus Christ necessary for justification?

    The answer to your question about what kind of "faith" is required for Justification is in the passage on "Preparation" that we had discussed earlier from Session 6, Chapter 6:

    CHAPTER VI.

    The manner of Preparation.

    Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

    I follow what Trent says. 


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #310 on: April 03, 2023, 05:26:36 PM »
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  • The answer to your question about what kind of "faith" is required for Justification is in the passage on "Preparation" that we had discussed earlier from Session 6, Chapter 6:

    I follow what Trent says.

    Stop trying to weasel out of this.  Yes or no.  Is explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation necessary for justification?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #311 on: April 03, 2023, 05:31:05 PM »
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  • My reading of the text ("the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" from Trent Session 6, chapter 4) is supported by commentary from St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Alphonsus, by the Catechism of Trent, and by the "common opinion" of the theologians as discussed in Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

    Which Catholic theologians, teaching with an imprimatur, after the Council of Trent support your position?

    St. Peter Canisius, Doctor of the Church who who present and spoke twice at Trent.  In his catechism, when he states that Baptism is necessary for adults and infants, by adults he has a footnotes that references Trent and two passage from the Church Fathers, both of which explicitly state that even good Catechumens cannot be saved if they died before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Apart from that, defend YOUR "reading of the text".  Neither theologians nor Doctors nor Church Fathers (except the latter in unanimity) are infallible.

    But, you can't and you won't, because you don't want to consider the matter honestly.  You've already made up your mind about what you want to believe on this subject.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #312 on: April 03, 2023, 06:03:32 PM »
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  • St. Peter Canisius, Doctor of the Church who who present and spoke twice at Trent.  In his catechism, when he states that Baptism is necessary for adults and infants, by adults he has a footnotes that references Trent and two passage from the Church Fathers, both of which explicitly state that even good Catechumens cannot be saved if they died before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Apart from that, defend YOUR "reading of the text".  Neither theologians nor Doctors nor Church Fathers (except the latter in unanimity) are infallible.

    But, you can't and you won't, because you don't want to consider the matter honestly.  You've already made up your mind about what you want to believe on this subject.

    Canisius is speaking "generally" in that passage from his Catechism. He is not considering all of the theological corner-cases that are too much in the weeds for his target audience. He was writing a catechism for adolescents, as you can see in the title of his work "Summa doctrinæ christianæ . . . in usum Christianæ pueritiæ." A catechism directed at adolescents is not the place to go into detail on BoD.

    You might want to cross that one off your list.


    Now, the Catechism of Trent, IS directed at a higher-level, more mature audience, specifically Pastors and Priests. It does discuss BoD:

    "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentence for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

    Unlike the Canisius catechism, the Roman Catechism was officially promulgated by the Universal Church and guaranteed to be free to essential error.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #313 on: April 03, 2023, 06:22:18 PM »
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  • Now, the Catechism of Trent, IS directed at a higher-level, more mature audience, specifically Pastors and Priests. It does discuss BoD:

    "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentence for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

    Unlike the Canisius catechism, the Roman Catechism was officially promulgated by the Universal Church and guaranteed to be free to essential error.
    Read the title of the thread and read through the start of the thread. The Catechism does not teach BoD and is certainly not infallible as it was only intended for pastors and not the entire Church, no catechism is infallible.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #314 on: April 03, 2023, 06:53:55 PM »
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  • Read the title of the thread and read through the start of the thread. The Catechism does not teach BoD and is certainly not infallible as it was only intended for pastors and not the entire Church, no catechism is infallible.

    And the title of the thread and the post at the start of the thread are misleading. I prove what I say with the actual evidence from the Catechism, so that those "with eyes to see" will not be misled. Here is the quote again from the Catechism of Trent:

    "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentence for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

    The quote is taken from the Part on "The Sacraments," the Chapter on "Baptism," the Section on "Necessity of Baptism," and the second to last Sub-section titled "Ordinarily They [adults] Are Not Baptized At Once."

    The bolded quote above is explaining why the Church practice of delaying adult baptism until a suitable time is not dangerous to the soul of the catechumen. 

    If the Church actually taught that BoD was not possible (as many on this thread claim), then that same Church would be the cause of countless souls going to Hell for lack of the Sacrament when they die before the Sacrament has been received. But, of course, the Church does not teach what some on this thread claim it teaches. That is why the Church waits when adults are to be baptized and no one worries about it.

    It is infallible Ordinary and Universal Magisterium that the "desire for the [bath of regeneration]" is sufficient to justify the soul of the catechumen. The practice agrees with the doctrine.