Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64391 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #290 on: April 02, 2023, 06:58:41 PM »

Quote
Read Canon 30 again carefully. Nowhere in that canon will you find any exclusive reference to any Sacrament (Penance or otherwise).
:facepalm:  "Repentent Sinner" = sacrament of confession.


The purpose of baptism is not for repentent sinners, it is to join the Church.  Canon 30 is definitely talking about confession's justification, not baptism's.  The rest of your post is scattered thoughts based on this foundational error.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #291 on: April 02, 2023, 07:00:46 PM »

Quote
But if an infant is baptised in the orthodox church and dies before the age of reason, are they saved?
Yes, and this applies to protestants or even pagan households.  If the child did not reach the age of reason, then they could not embrace heresy/paganism, so they would die a catholic.  In theory.


Offline Angelus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #292 on: April 02, 2023, 08:03:44 PM »
:facepalm:  "Repentent Sinner" = sacrament of confession.


The purpose of baptism is not for repentent sinners, it is to join the Church.  Canon 30 is definitely talking about confession's justification, not baptism's.  The rest of your post is scattered thoughts based on this foundational error.
Trent Session 6:

----------
CHAPTER VI.

The manner of Preparation.
Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

-------------

The purpose of baptism to be washed from past sin, both original and actual (if relevant to that individual). The Novus Ordo rite of Baptism follows the Novus Ordo theology of baptism is "to join the Church."


Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #293 on: April 02, 2023, 08:05:28 PM »
Yes, and this applies to protestants or even pagan households.  If the child did not reach the age of reason, then they could not embrace heresy/paganism, so they would die a catholic.  In theory.
Alright thanks. I had assumed so but wanted to be sure, assuming their baptism was valid of course.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #294 on: April 02, 2023, 08:53:58 PM »
Quote
The purpose of baptism to be washed from past sin, both original and actual (if relevant to that individual). The Novus Ordo rite of Baptism follows the Novus Ordo theology of baptism is "to join the Church."
No and yes.  The purpose of Baptism is based on the first question the priest asks the adult or godparents of the child: 

Q1 - "What do you ask of the Church?"
A1 - "Faith".

Q2 - "What does Faith provide?"
A1 - "Everlasting life."

The purpose of Baptism is Faith.  It is not the remission of sins, which is a byproduct of the sacrament.  You cannot enter heaven without Faith, which is why Christ said that water and the Holy Ghost is required.  The Holy Ghost provides supernatural Faith, after the catechumen studies the faith (i.e. religion) and has the necessary (human) faith and desire to enter the Church.

You are correct that the novus ordo's change from Faith to "joining the Church" is a watering-down of the ideal purpose and understanding of Baptism.  But it's not invalid.

Thus, again, a BOD'er can desire Baptism (i.e. true Faith), not yet receive it in the sacrament, but can receive remission of sins/justification.  But nowhere does Trent teach that justification is equal to the Faith received in the sacrament, i.e. Supernatural Faith/Wedding garment/baptismal character.  Maybe it's the same?  Not sure.  The Church has never clarified this.