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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41248 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #270 on: April 01, 2023, 07:38:18 AM »
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  • 1.  BOD is not in every catechism.  It started being inserted in the 1700/1800s.  Examples: Some posters here in the past showed pictures of the original Baltimore Catechism which has no mention of it.  But subsequent editions mentioned it.  It was added. 

    It appears, to the contrary, that the original BC (1885, volume 2 - I misnamed it as "1889") does refer to BOD. See the attached from archive.org: https://ia800308.us.archive.org/28/items/baltimorecatechi14552gut/14552.txt
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #271 on: April 01, 2023, 08:02:56 AM »
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  • The question is:  Was BOD in the original text (i.e. the original language...latin), or only in the "translated" texts (i.e. english, italian, etc)?  And when was it translated?

    Was it? Let's you and me try to find it. I'm trying. Lend a hand.

    But I don't think it will matter, will it? I suspect you'll still read the text your way, even if a conspiracy of later "insertion" is dispelled.


    The OP post is attempting to disprove that. Allegedly it was the Dimonds who first said that the Catechism of Trent teaches BoD. Did anyone else teach this before them?

    There's a book called "Sources of Baptism of Blood and Desire" - Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire : Christopher P. Conlon : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

    I
    f you review it, you will see that the post-Trentian sources on BOD almost always, when they cite a support, cite the Council of Trent itself. There was a universal consensus that that's what Trent said in Session VI, Chapter 4 - one could be justified by a desire for the sacrament. If one thought Trent itself said that, why would one quote the Catechism on BOD? No one questioned Trent itself on BOD, and it was not necessary to refer to the Catechism as there was no controversy that Trent itself said it until the late 1940s or 1950s and, subsequently, "Feeneyism."

    In response to a challenge that Trent referred to BOD, one would naturally go then to the Catechism of the Council. There would be no need in the absence of a dispute or challenge as to what Trent itself said.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #272 on: April 01, 2023, 08:10:08 AM »
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  • I don't reject V1 though I'm not 100% sure on the point you are trying to make. I thought it was not possible to make 'massive' changes to the mass? Though there are other issues with the V2 'Popes' than just the new mass.

    I'm not accusing you of rejecting V1, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. My point was, men - fallible sinners and imperfect men - will take a truth and extend or pervert it to extremes. The extremities to which these fallible men stretch a truth does not render the truth itself (on its terms, properly understood) false.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #274 on: April 01, 2023, 11:16:29 AM »
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  • I'm not accusing you of rejecting V1, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. My point was, men - fallible sinners and imperfect men - will take a truth and extend or pervert it to extremes. The extremities to which these fallible men stretch a truth does not render the truth itself (on its terms, properly understood) false.

    Not per se, but very often when a concept like BoD ends up derailing, it's OFTEN (although not certainly) an indicator that there was some subtle flaw in it in the first place.  To extend the detailing metaphor, that train in East Palestine OH derailed, but hotspot indicators saw that one of the wheels was shooting out flames many miles before the actual derailment.  It COULD have been that the derailment happened just right there on the spot, or it could be that something led up to it.

    BoD has been extended and perverted to completely gut EENS dogma.  Is it just because it was misunderstood and misapplied or because there was some ticking timebomb, a theological flaw, in the first place?  There's also the notion of its fruits.  When a theological position has such incredibly bad fruits, as BoD has had, it's generally a good sign or indicator that it was flawed out of the gate.

    Where was the line crossed?  For St. Robert, it was just for catechumens.  For other, it was for catechumen-like individuals (even if they hadn't formally "signed up" as catechumens), for others it could be implicit, and then even more implicit, and even so implicit that any "nice guy trying to do good" could implicitly receive Baptism?  Where is the line to be drawn?  We don't know.  And the fact that we don't know is even more prima facie evidence that this notion has never been defined.

    For those who claim BoD is de fide, we do not give the assent of faith to a concept or a phrase, such as "BoD".  We assent to propositions.  WHAT are we to believe about BoD?  Nobody knows, as there's a different opinion about for almost everyone who believes in BoD, including applying BoD to baptized heretics.  Really, the greatest common factor of all BoD theory is that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation ... which is heretical.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #275 on: April 01, 2023, 12:51:29 PM »
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  • I do agree that we can't necessarily throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, and reject BoD SIMPLY because it's been used and abused to undermine EENS dogma.

    I've always separated the two concerns, which are nearly always conflated ... by both sides.

    I have objections to BoD theory while examining it as a standalone thing.  I see no evidence of its having been revealed, nor any theological proof for it.  If you look at its origins, it was CLEARLY rooted in speculation. 

    St. Augustine was really the only Church Father to unambiguously float the notion, and he was CLEARLY and admittedly speculating.  In the famous passage, he wrote, "having considered it over and over again, I find that ... [BoD]".  He went back and forth on it, and clearly said "I find that ...".  He was clearly not teaching this with any authority, as if it were some doctrine received from the Apostles and part of the Deposit.  In fact, the argument he adduced in that passage was mistaken, as he argued from the example of the Good Thief.  Problem there, of course, is that the Good Thief died before the Sacrament of Baptism was made obligatory after Our Lord's Resurrection.  Nor is it clear what is meant by "paradise", as he could not enter Heaven "this day", since the gates of Heaven weren't opened until Our Lord rose a couple days later on the Third Day.  This "paradise" was a reference to the Limbo of the Fathers.  In any case, St. Augustine later retracted BoD and made some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  But the tentativeness of his speculation, the fact that it was based on mistaken reasoning, and the fact that St. Augustine later vehemently retracted it ... these seemed to be lost on those who later in Medieval times kept appealing to his "authority" and that of St. Ambrose for their belief in BoD.  It was also lost on them that 5-6 Church Fathers explicitly rejected it.  What were the other Fathers, chopped liver?  When the works of St. Augustine became more available in the proto-scholastic era, there was an excessive adulation of St. Augustine, to the point that the Church had to condemn the proposition that it's possible to prefer the teaching of St. Augustine to that of the Church's Magisterium.  When the Church condemns a proposition, it's because someone out there holds it.  St. Augustine's theological position that infants who die unbaptized go to hell and suffer an (albeit mild) pain of loss was held for 700 years ... until it was finally questioned by Abelard, and eventually most theologians sided with his opinion.  And, interestingly, the same Abelard also rejected BoD theory.  I'll come back to an interesting aside about Abelard in a later post.

    As for St. Ambrose, it's unclear what he meant about Valentinian.  He hoped that the same condition could apply to Valentinian's piety/zeal as would apply to unbaptized martyrs.  But he then said that even unbaptized martyrs are not crowned, even if they are washed.  That distinction has never been properly noticed or accounted for.  Elsewhere, St. Ambrose clearly teaches that even devout catechumens cannot be crowned (enter the Kingdom) if they die before their initiation (reception of the Sacrament).  Was he contradicting himself or was there some distinction we're missing?

    So these were the only two Fathers who arguably held some notion of BoD, one of them temporarily.  We have 5-6 Fathers who explicitly reject the concept.  At one point, St. Augustine admitted that BoD was speculation in response to the fact that sometimes devout catechumens would die without Baptism, whereas certain scoundrels who kept sinning until their last moments would receive the Sacrament on their deathbed.  So here the speculation was rooted in judgments about what would or would not be "fair" for God to do, a very dangerous line of thinking, as many have lost the faith due to considering God cruel or unmerciful for allowing one or another tragedy to befall innocent people.  St. Augustine dismissed this line of reasoning, saying that those who "wish to be Catholic" must reject it, and that this line of thought leads to a "vortex of confusion".  He couldn't have been more prophetic.  BoD has created an incredible vortex of confusion in the Church, precisely because it's all motivated by this notion that "it would not be fair if ..."  Even St. Robert Bellarmine stated that he came to accept BoD because the contrary "would seem too harsh" (durius esset).  But this is not theology, and our judgments about the mercy and justice of God from our feeble minds can never be used as theological proof of anything.  God's allowing of evil in the world has long remained a mystery.  We simply hold by faith that WHATEVER God does is in fact all just and all merciful at the same time.  So it is not for us to draw theological conclusions from emotional premises.  We are to understand what God has REVEALED to us, and BoD is not revealed.  God only revealed the necessity of Baptism for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.  Also, there's this disturbing premise in BoD, that somehow people can be prevented by "impossibility" from receiving a Sacrament that God willed them to receive ... as if anything were impossible for God.  It's basically a dark heretical underbelly of the entire thing that St. Augustine also exposed as such in the "vortex of confusion" passage, and that's why he said that anyone who wished to be Catholic needs to reject that thinking.  God has worked miracles to get the Sacrament of Baptism to His elect, raising some from the dead (via St. Peter Claver), or providing miraculous access to water.  Impossibility is nonsense.  Ironically, BoDers claim that anti-BoDers "constrain" God by the Sacraments, while themselves constraining Him by "impossibility".  No, we do not "constrain" God by the Sacraments.  He can obviously do anything He wills.  What we're trying to investigate is what God has revealed about the economy of salvation as He has laid it down.

    So, after the time of St. Fulgentius (early 500s A.D.) until about 600 years later, there's no mention of BoD in Catholic theology (for or against).  In the pre- or proto- scholastic era, there was the revival of interest in and access to St. Augustine, and there was a dispute about BoD between two famous teachers, Abelard and Hugh of St. Victor, the former being against and the latter for.  Peter Lombard, of the famous "Sentences", that became the textbook of all the later scholastics, asked St. Bernard to weigh in on the dispute.  St. Bernard VERY TENTATIVELY sided in favor of BoD, saying that he'd "rather be right with Augustine than wrong on his own" ... evidently also unaware that St. Augustine had retracted the opinion.  Peter Lombard then went with it, included it in the "Sentences", from where St. Thomas also went with it.  And, after St. Thomas, it of course went "viral".  On a side note, St. Bernard was very hostile to Abelard, accusing him of impiety (and even heresy) for his approach to theology.  But Abelard was nothing but ahead of his time and should be considered the father of scholasticism.  His approach in the work "Sic Non" (Yes No) was nothing other than the same approach St. Thomas made famous later, where he examined theological propositions based on looking at the counter-arguments.  Abelard also defined theology as reason applied to revealed doctrine, which St. Bernard wrongly rejected as impious.  This became the very definition of theology, as taught by St. Thomas and the scholastics.  St. Bernard did not think that reason should be applied to Revelation.

    Then we have something from Pope Innocent II, who also (as we have seen incorrectly) relied on "the authority of Ambrose and Augustine," but did not teach it with his own papal authority.  NEITHER of these Fathers, as we have seen, taught it with any kind of "authority" ... if they even held the opinion at all.

    This is the true history of BoD, and there's no evidence that it can be considered any more than mere speculation, often founded in non-Catholic principles, such as binding God by impossibility, judgments regarding whether something or not would be fair for God to do, etc.  This thinking, or rather, emotion, is clearly behind BoD theory, and it is not a valid foundation for any kind of actual theology.  True theological proofs for BoD simply do not exist.

    Finally, I object to BoD because it minimizes the necessity and effects of the Baptismal character.  It is the Baptismal character that transforms the soul into the likeness of God's Son, Our Lord, so that the Father recognizes the soul as a Son, a member of the Family of the Holy Trinity, by adoption, and this is how the soul enters into the inner life of the Holy Trinity and can see God as He is in the Beatific Vision.  This supernatural ability to see God as He is, human beings lack it by nature, so they require an additional supernatural faculty for it, and that too is an effect of the Baptismal character.  This character effectively imprints Our Lord's "DNA" on the soul and the body, allowing human beings to become members of Christ and thus part of the Church.  BoD theory would reduce the Baptismal character to a simple non-repeatability marker that some people in Heaven have and others don't, meaning that the Sacrament cannot be repeated.  That is not consistent with what the Fathers thought of the "seal" or the "crown" or the "character".  For the Fathers, these were essential to entering the Kingdom of Heaven.  I'd be more open / amenable to a BoD theory that posited the reception of this character by those who have BoD than the one that holds they do not.  There are serious problems with the BoD theory holding that temporal punishment can remain after BoD, since that's not a true "rebirth" as defined by the Council of Trent.  There are serious problems with the BoD reading of Trent.

    No one denies that BoD eventually became the dominant or prevailing theological opinion, but mere unanimity of opinion does not constitute a note of dogma and revelation.  As we saw, St. Augustine's mistaken opinion regarding the fate of unbaptized infants was unanimously held for nearly 700 years.  And for the BoDers who make too much of this being the prevailing opinion, many of these same reject the necessity of explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation for salvation.  Well, what of the fact that this was the unanimous teaching and belief of all the Fathers and of all Catholics for the first 1500 years of Church history?  It was OK for a Franciscan and some Jesuit to come along and question this, but evil of Father Feeney to question the prevailing opinion about BoD?  If anything could be considered an infallible teaching of the OUM, it's the fact that explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Our Lord were necessary for salvation, and yet the same people who claim was must follow theological opinion of the last couple hundred years, simply toss this aside as if it didn't even exist.  Some Trads follow what I call "Cekadism", holding that the consensus of theologians is somehow an effectively-infallible rule of faith.  Msgr. Fenton explicitly rejected this exaggeration.

    This is really the state of BoD.  It is not and can never be defined dogma.  There's no theological proof for it, no evidence that it was revealed.

    In practice, in its application or, arguably, mis-application, it's caused tremendous harm.  If I were pope, one of the first things I'd do is to ban all mention of BoD and order it expunged from all Catholic theological works, including those of the Doctors.  It is never to be mentioned again by Catholics ... even short of issuing a condemnation of the notion.  Why?  Simply weigh the possible good that could come from believing in BoD vs. the harm we've seen come from it.

    What good does it do?  It's merely used to provide some (possibly unfounded) hope in people who have lost loved ones who were not baptized.  That's all it was ever for.

    On the other side, it has done tremendous damage to faith in the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation and to EENS dogma.  Without BoD, Vatican II could never have happened.  Ironically, it also, as Father Feeney famously pointed out, LESSENED individuals' resolve to receive the Sacrament, as they believe it less necessary.  So belief in BoD actually lessens the possibility that BoD could "happen".  I recall the story related by Archbishop Lefebvre of an African native who urgently requested Baptism, being worried that he wouldn't see the Archbishop for a long time and might die in the interim.  Archbishop Lefebvre answered that he needn't worry because he'd be saved by his desire.  Did this African go off thinking, "Whew.  I don't really need Baptism to be saved." and with a seriously reduced desire and intention to receive it as a result?

    BoD needs to be never mentioned again by Catholics, and possibly condemned.  If I were Pope, I'd immediately ban any mention of it and order mention of it expunged from all Catholic books, explaining that the Church has never taught BoD, even if it was tolerated, and that the toleration was coming to an end.  I would issue an Encyclical/Bull reiterating the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  Then I would prayerfully consider whether to outright explicitly condemn the notion of BoD, asking God for signs about whether I should do so.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #276 on: April 01, 2023, 01:45:56 PM »
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  • Quote
    It appears, to the contrary, that the original BC (1885, volume 2 - I misnamed it as "1889") does refer to BOD. See the attached from archive.org: https://ia800308.us.archive.org/28/items/baltimorecatechi14552gut/14552.txt
    I mispoke.  What I meant to say is that the Baltimore Catechism is the american/english version of the Roman/latin catechism published after Trent (1600s).  So we must go to the source, the Trent/latin version to see what it says. 

    I can't trust (on this issue) an english translation, because we all know that by 1880s, the doctrine of EENS was under heavy fire, especially in america due to the mixing of protestants/catholics.  In Rome, in the 1880s, this was 10 years after Pope Pius IX had been imprisoned in the Vatican by masons.  Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ was EVERYWHERE in europe, america and in Italy/Vatican.  V2 almost happened in the early 1910s had Pope St Pius X not been elected miraculously.  The 1880s were FAR, FAR, FAR from orthodox; politics, infiltration and doctrinal lukewarmness was everywhere.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #277 on: April 01, 2023, 02:13:43 PM »
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  • Quote
    We are to understand what God has REVEALED to us, and BoD is not revealed.  God only revealed the necessity of Baptism for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.  Also, there's this disturbing premise in BoD, that somehow people can be prevented by "impossibility" from receiving a Sacrament that God willed them to receive ... as if anything were impossible for God.
    Right.  From all eternity, before He even created the earth, God knew every person whom He was going to bring into existence.  He knew that Adam and Eve would sin; He knew mankind would need a Redeemer, that He would create a Church, that would have 7 sacraments, and all and every manner of detailed circuмstances that each and every single person would go through, on a day to day basis, before they died.  We are like a colony of ameoba under a microscope and God is the all-knowing, all-just, all-wise, all-merciful Scientist.  He knows everything and has always known it.



    Quote
    It's basically a dark heretical underbelly of the entire thing that St. Augustine also exposed as such in the "vortex of confusion" passage, and that's why he said that anyone who wished to be Catholic needs to reject that thinking.  God has worked miracles to get the Sacrament of Baptism to His elect, raising some from the dead (via St. Peter Claver), or providing miraculous access to water.  Impossibility is nonsense. 
    God created the rules, which are the 7 sacraments and He knows that Baptism is the most important and primary one.  He knows how "strict" the rules seem; He knows the very number of hairs on our head, but yet He can't provide baptism to those that want it?  Nonsense.  God is the Almighty master planner, master strategist, and master orchestrator.  He sees the past, present and future all at once.  He knows where each and every human being will be, 5 minutes from now, a year from now, 10 years from now.  Nobody can hide from God and His reach is impossible to constrain.  


    If He created the idea of 7 sacraments, then that means His idea is perfect, both in planning, and execution.  He does not second guess Himself, for He can't make a mistake.  If He decided that Baptism and water were necessary then He will make it possible.  God cannot deceive us; what He asks, He will give us the grace to do, if our will is open to His.


    Quote
    Ironically, BoDers claim that anti-BoDers "constrain" God by the Sacraments, while themselves constraining Him by "impossibility".  No, we do not "constrain" God by the Sacraments.  He can obviously do anything He wills.  What we're trying to investigate is what God has revealed about the economy of salvation as He has laid it down.
    God has constrained Himself by the Sacraments, by His own decision and authority.  God cannot change, nor can he be wrong, nor can He deceive, nor can He make a minor error.  Everything He decides is perfect, just, and merciful.  Thus, He has no reason to go outside His own rules, for this would mean His rules are flawed or imperfect.  He cannot change the rules, nor can He have exceptions, for He is all-constant, all-stable, and all-truthful.  


    If God creates rules, then He will run the world according to them.  For any rules are part of His Holy Will, and He knew from all eternity that He would operate the Church and salvation in this way.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #278 on: April 01, 2023, 06:35:55 PM »
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  • I do agree that we can't necessarily throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, and reject BoD SIMPLY because it's been used and abused to undermine EENS dogma.

    I've always separated the two concerns, which are nearly always conflated ... by both sides.

    I have objections to BoD theory while examining it as a standalone thing.  I see no evidence of its having been revealed, nor any theological proof for it.  If you look at its origins, it was CLEARLY rooted in speculation. 

    St. Augustine was really the only Church Father to unambiguously float the notion, and he was CLEARLY and admittedly speculating.  In the famous passage, he wrote, "having considered it over and over again, I find that ... [BoD]".  He went back and forth on it, and clearly said "I find that ...".  He was clearly not teaching this with any authority, as if it were some doctrine received from the Apostles and part of the Deposit.  In fact, the argument he adduced in that passage was mistaken, as he argued from the example of the Good Thief.  Problem there, of course, is that the Good Thief died before the Sacrament of Baptism was made obligatory after Our Lord's Resurrection.  Nor is it clear what is meant by "paradise", as he could not enter Heaven "this day", since the gates of Heaven weren't opened until Our Lord rose a couple days later on the Third Day.  This "paradise" was a reference to the Limbo of the Fathers.  In any case, St. Augustine later retracted BoD and made some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  But the tentativeness of his speculation, the fact that it was based on mistaken reasoning, and the fact that St. Augustine later vehemently retracted it ... these seemed to be lost on those who later in Medieval times kept appealing to his "authority" and that of St. Ambrose for their belief in BoD.  It was also lost on them that 5-6 Church Fathers explicitly rejected it.  What were the other Fathers, chopped liver?  When the works of St. Augustine became more available in the proto-scholastic era, there was an excessive adulation of St. Augustine, to the point that the Church had to condemn the proposition that it's possible to prefer the teaching of St. Augustine to that of the Church's Magisterium.  When the Church condemns a proposition, it's because someone out there holds it.  St. Augustine's theological position that infants who die unbaptized go to hell and suffer an (albeit mild) pain of loss was held for 700 years ... until it was finally questioned by Abelard, and eventually most theologians sided with his opinion.  And, interestingly, the same Abelard also rejected BoD theory.  I'll come back to an interesting aside about Abelard in a later post.

    As for St. Ambrose, it's unclear what he meant about Valentinian.  He hoped that the same condition could apply to Valentinian's piety/zeal as would apply to unbaptized martyrs.  But he then said that even unbaptized martyrs are not crowned, even if they are washed.  That distinction has never been properly noticed or accounted for.  Elsewhere, St. Ambrose clearly teaches that even devout catechumens cannot be crowned (enter the Kingdom) if they die before their initiation (reception of the Sacrament).  Was he contradicting himself or was there some distinction we're missing?

    So these were the only two Fathers who arguably held some notion of BoD, one of them temporarily.  We have 5-6 Fathers who explicitly reject the concept.  At one point, St. Augustine admitted that BoD was speculation in response to the fact that sometimes devout catechumens would die without Baptism, whereas certain scoundrels who kept sinning until their last moments would receive the Sacrament on their deathbed.  So here the speculation was rooted in judgments about what would or would not be "fair" for God to do, a very dangerous line of thinking, as many have lost the faith due to considering God cruel or unmerciful for allowing one or another tragedy to befall innocent people.  St. Augustine dismissed this line of reasoning, saying that those who "wish to be Catholic" must reject it, and that this line of thought leads to a "vortex of confusion".  He couldn't have been more prophetic.  BoD has created an incredible vortex of confusion in the Church, precisely because it's all motivated by this notion that "it would not be fair if ..."  Even St. Robert Bellarmine stated that he came to accept BoD because the contrary "would seem too harsh" (durius esset).  But this is not theology, and our judgments about the mercy and justice of God from our feeble minds can never be used as theological proof of anything.  God's allowing of evil in the world has long remained a mystery.  We simply hold by faith that WHATEVER God does is in fact all just and all merciful at the same time.  So it is not for us to draw theological conclusions from emotional premises.  We are to understand what God has REVEALED to us, and BoD is not revealed.  God only revealed the necessity of Baptism for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.  Also, there's this disturbing premise in BoD, that somehow people can be prevented by "impossibility" from receiving a Sacrament that God willed them to receive ... as if anything were impossible for God.  It's basically a dark heretical underbelly of the entire thing that St. Augustine also exposed as such in the "vortex of confusion" passage, and that's why he said that anyone who wished to be Catholic needs to reject that thinking.  God has worked miracles to get the Sacrament of Baptism to His elect, raising some from the dead (via St. Peter Claver), or providing miraculous access to water.  Impossibility is nonsense.  Ironically, BoDers claim that anti-BoDers "constrain" God by the Sacraments, while themselves constraining Him by "impossibility".  No, we do not "constrain" God by the Sacraments.  He can obviously do anything He wills.  What we're trying to investigate is what God has revealed about the economy of salvation as He has laid it down.

    So, after the time of St. Fulgentius (early 500s A.D.) until about 600 years later, there's no mention of BoD in Catholic theology (for or against).  In the pre- or proto- scholastic era, there was the revival of interest in and access to St. Augustine, and there was a dispute about BoD between two famous teachers, Abelard and Hugh of St. Victor, the former being against and the latter for.  Peter Lombard, of the famous "Sentences", that became the textbook of all the later scholastics, asked St. Bernard to weigh in on the dispute.  St. Bernard VERY TENTATIVELY sided in favor of BoD, saying that he'd "rather be right with Augustine than wrong on his own" ... evidently also unaware that St. Augustine had retracted the opinion.  Peter Lombard then went with it, included it in the "Sentences", from where St. Thomas also went with it.  And, after St. Thomas, it of course went "viral".  On a side note, St. Bernard was very hostile to Abelard, accusing him of impiety (and even heresy) for his approach to theology.  But Abelard was nothing but ahead of his time and should be considered the father of scholasticism.  His approach in the work "Sic Non" (Yes No) was nothing other than the same approach St. Thomas made famous later, where he examined theological propositions based on looking at the counter-arguments.  Abelard also defined theology as reason applied to revealed doctrine, which St. Bernard wrongly rejected as impious.  This became the very definition of theology, as taught by St. Thomas and the scholastics.  St. Bernard did not think that reason should be applied to Revelation.

    Then we have something from Pope Innocent II, who also (as we have seen incorrectly) relied on "the authority of Ambrose and Augustine," but did not teach it with his own papal authority.  NEITHER of these Fathers, as we have seen, taught it with any kind of "authority" ... if they even held the opinion at all.

    This is the true history of BoD, and there's no evidence that it can be considered any more than mere speculation, often founded in non-Catholic principles, such as binding God by impossibility, judgments regarding whether something or not would be fair for God to do, etc.  This thinking, or rather, emotion, is clearly behind BoD theory, and it is not a valid foundation for any kind of actual theology.  True theological proofs for BoD simply do not exist.

    Finally, I object to BoD because it minimizes the necessity and effects of the Baptismal character.  It is the Baptismal character that transforms the soul into the likeness of God's Son, Our Lord, so that the Father recognizes the soul as a Son, a member of the Family of the Holy Trinity, by adoption, and this is how the soul enters into the inner life of the Holy Trinity and can see God as He is in the Beatific Vision.  This supernatural ability to see God as He is, human beings lack it by nature, so they require an additional supernatural faculty for it, and that too is an effect of the Baptismal character.  This character effectively imprints Our Lord's "DNA" on the soul and the body, allowing human beings to become members of Christ and thus part of the Church.  BoD theory would reduce the Baptismal character to a simple non-repeatability marker that some people in Heaven have and others don't, meaning that the Sacrament cannot be repeated.  That is not consistent with what the Fathers thought of the "seal" or the "crown" or the "character".  For the Fathers, these were essential to entering the Kingdom of Heaven.  I'd be more open / amenable to a BoD theory that posited the reception of this character by those who have BoD than the one that holds they do not.  There are serious problems with the BoD theory holding that temporal punishment can remain after BoD, since that's not a true "rebirth" as defined by the Council of Trent.  There are serious problems with the BoD reading of Trent.

    No one denies that BoD eventually became the dominant or prevailing theological opinion, but mere unanimity of opinion does not constitute a note of dogma and revelation.  As we saw, St. Augustine's mistaken opinion regarding the fate of unbaptized infants was unanimously held for nearly 700 years.  And for the BoDers who make too much of this being the prevailing opinion, many of these same reject the necessity of explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation for salvation.  Well, what of the fact that this was the unanimous teaching and belief of all the Fathers and of all Catholics for the first 1500 years of Church history?  It was OK for a Franciscan and some Jesuit to come along and question this, but evil of Father Feeney to question the prevailing opinion about BoD?  If anything could be considered an infallible teaching of the OUM, it's the fact that explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Our Lord were necessary for salvation, and yet the same people who claim was must follow theological opinion of the last couple hundred years, simply toss this aside as if it didn't even exist.  Some Trads follow what I call "Cekadism", holding that the consensus of theologians is somehow an effectively-infallible rule of faith.  Msgr. Fenton explicitly rejected this exaggeration.

    This is really the state of BoD.  It is not and can never be defined dogma.  There's no theological proof for it, no evidence that it was revealed.

    In practice, in its application or, arguably, mis-application, it's caused tremendous harm.  If I were pope, one of the first things I'd do is to ban all mention of BoD and order it expunged from all Catholic theological works, including those of the Doctors.  It is never to be mentioned again by Catholics ... even short of issuing a condemnation of the notion.  Why?  Simply weigh the possible good that could come from believing in BoD vs. the harm we've seen come from it.

    What good does it do?  It's merely used to provide some (possibly unfounded) hope in people who have lost loved ones who were not baptized.  That's all it was ever for.

    On the other side, it has done tremendous damage to faith in the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation and to EENS dogma.  Without BoD, Vatican II could never have happened.  Ironically, it also, as Father Feeney famously pointed out, LESSENED individuals' resolve to receive the Sacrament, as they believe it less necessary.  So belief in BoD actually lessens the possibility that BoD could "happen".  I recall the story related by Archbishop Lefebvre of an African native who urgently requested Baptism, being worried that he wouldn't see the Archbishop for a long time and might die in the interim.  Archbishop Lefebvre answered that he needn't worry because he'd be saved by his desire.  Did this African go off thinking, "Whew.  I don't really need Baptism to be saved." and with a seriously reduced desire and intention to receive it as a result?

    BoD needs to be never mentioned again by Catholics, and possibly condemned.  If I were Pope, I'd immediately ban any mention of it and order mention of it expunged from all Catholic books, explaining that the Church has never taught BoD, even if it was tolerated, and that the toleration was coming to an end.  I would issue an Encyclical/Bull reiterating the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  Then I would prayerfully consider whether to outright explicitly condemn the notion of BoD, asking God for signs about whether I should do so.
    Excellent post, everyone needs to see this. I would give thanks buy it's doesn't let me.

    Unfortunately most trads will not go out of their comfort zone to take in and consider this point of view and it's doesn't help that they would rather follow the clergy who teach BoB/BoD/II then do their own research. Also the clergy themselves are very stubborn in regards to looking at all the information.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #279 on: April 01, 2023, 10:55:01 PM »
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  • There are serious problems with the BoD theory holding that temporal punishment can remain after BoD, since that's not a true "rebirth" as defined by the Council of Trent.  There are serious problems with the BoD reading of Trent.

    In his quote above, Ladislaus seems to take as his position what Canon 30 (Canons on Justification) has anathematized:

    Ladislaus: "there are serious problems with BoD theory holding that temporal punishment can remain after BoD."

    Trent Canon 30: "If anyone saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received...that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment...let him be anathema."

    If Ladislaus means by "BoD" what is described as "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" in Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, which Trent says confers "justification" on the soul, then his statement has already been anathematized.

    Ladislaus seems to think that the Tridentine concept of BoD, "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]," is just another name for the Sacrament of Baptism, having identical effects. But that is not what Trent is saying. There is overlap between the Sacrament of Baptism and BoD only in that both confer "justification" on the soul. But the Sacrament does more than simply confer "justification," it remits all temporal debt as well. And the Sacrament of Baptism also acts as the gateway to the other Sacraments of the Church. BoD only confers "justification," but it does not remit temporal debt nor does it act as a gateway of the other Sacraments.

    No one can enter eternal life without paying "the last farthing" (Matthew 5:26). The Sacrament of Baptism received at the moment of death would allow the soul to immediately enter into eternal life because the "last farthing" is paid by the Sacrament. But having "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" (i.e., extra-sacramental desire to be regenerated) at the moment of death will require that the soul spend time in Purgatory before they are worthy to enter into eternal life. 



    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #280 on: April 02, 2023, 05:47:59 AM »
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  • Was it? Let's you and me try to find it. I'm trying. Lend a hand.

    But I don't think it will matter, will it? I suspect you'll still read the text your way, even if a conspiracy of later "insertion" is dispelled.


    There's a book called "Sources of Baptism of Blood and Desire" - Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire : Christopher P. Conlon : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

    I
    f you review it, you will see that the post-Trentian sources on BOD almost always, when they cite a support, cite the Council of Trent itself. There was a universal consensus that that's what Trent said in Session VI, Chapter 4 - one could be justified by a desire for the sacrament. If one thought Trent itself said that, why would one quote the Catechism on BOD? No one questioned Trent itself on BOD, and it was not necessary to refer to the Catechism as there was no controversy that Trent itself said it until the late 1940s or 1950s and, subsequently, "Feeneyism."

    In response to a challenge that Trent referred to BOD, one would naturally go then to the Catechism of the Council. There would be no need in the absence of a dispute or challenge as to what Trent itself said.

    This did not start with Fr. Feeney, by the way I'm not a "feeneyite" neither is Friarminor. We don't agree with Fr. Feeney on justification. DecemRationis is saying "there was no controversy that Trent itself said it until the late 1940s or 1950s and, subsequently, "feeneyism" I already mentioned Pope Gregory XIII right after the Trent Catechism that the Church did not consider those who had not been baptized to be in the FAMILY OF CHRIST which is the CHURCH. St. Gregory nαzιanzen, St Leo I, Pope Gregory XIII & Pope Eugene IV weren't "feeneyites" they held water baptism.


    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #281 on: April 02, 2023, 05:53:56 AM »
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  • Excellent post, everyone needs to see this. I would give thanks buy it's doesn't let me.

    Unfortunately most trads will not go out of their comfort zone to take in and consider this point of view and it's doesn't help that they would rather follow the clergy who teach BoB/BoD/II then do their own research. Also the clergy themselves are very stubborn in regards to looking at all the information.
    I can't do the thumbsy up thingy too Anthony, but we can do this

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #282 on: April 02, 2023, 10:12:30 AM »
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  • This did not start with Fr. Feeney, by the way I'm not a "feeneyite" neither is Friarminor. We don't agree with Fr. Feeney on justification. DecemRationis is saying "there was no controversy that Trent itself said it until the late 1940s or 1950s and, subsequently, "feeneyism" I already mentioned Pope Gregory XIII right after the Trent Catechism that the Church did not consider those who had not been baptized to be in the FAMILY OF CHRIST which is the CHURCH. St. Gregory nαzιanzen, St Leo I, Pope Gregory XIII & Pope Eugene IV weren't "feeneyites" they held water baptism.

    You have not identified any controversy or dispute about whether the Council of Trent referred to baptism of desire before what is commonly understood and described as "Feeneyism," where I therefore still maintain it started.

    You are right that you don't agree with Fr. Feeney on Feeneyism, since Fr. Feeney I believe conceded that Trent indicated baptism of desire could justify . . . but not save.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #283 on: April 02, 2023, 10:49:07 AM »
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  • In his quote above, Ladislaus seems to take as his position what Canon 30 (Canons on Justification) has anathematized:

    Ladislaus: "there are serious problems with BoD theory holding that temporal punishment can remain after BoD."

    Trent Canon 30: "If anyone saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received...that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment...let him be anathema."

    You really tried the ellipses trick?  :facepalm:  Unbelievable.  This Canon is about the Sacrament of Confession.  This exposes the abject dishonesty of most BoDers right here.

    Of initial justification, Trent teaches:
    1) there can be no initial justification without regeneration or rebirth (as Our Lord taught that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of Heaven)
    2) regeneration / rebirth Trent defines as ridding the soul of any sin or stain of sin so that there's nothing left that would prevent the soul from immediately entering Heaven

    Here's the entirety of Canon 30:
    Quote
    Canon 30.

    If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

    Canon 29, right before it is already in the section of Canons on Confession:
    Quote
    Canon 29.

    If anyone says that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again, or that he can indeed recover again the lost justice but by faith alone without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and Universal Church, instructed by Christ the Lord and His Apostles, has hitherto professed, observed and taught, let him be anathema.

    Canon is speaking of repentant sinners (which you ellipsesed out).  Where exactly did I say that temporal punishment is removed from "every repentant sinner" (the part that you conveniently excised from the Canon)?  You accuse me of heresy by removing key sections that prove otherwise.  Shame.

    In Session 6 (the one on Baptism), Chapter III, we read:
    Quote
    so if they were not born again in Christ, they would never be justified, since in that new birth there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace by which they are made just.

    In Session 5 (on Original Sin), Chapter V, we read:
    Quote
    For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.

    There can be no initial justification without rebirth, and rebirth is defined as being made completely new "in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #284 on: April 02, 2023, 01:12:49 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Yeah, canon 30 is obviously referring to confession.  Come on, people.  Read slower and pray for understanding.  Or be honest.  Whichever solution fits your problem.