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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41308 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #240 on: March 28, 2023, 11:07:07 AM »
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  • I've long said that based on the teaching of Trent, that even if one believes in BoD, one must hold that the Sacrament of Baptism remains the instrumental cause of said justification even in a BoD scenario.

    But to read the "without the laver or the desire" passage the way BoDers do, one would have to say as the necessary logical corollary that justification can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism ... but that is false, and condemned as heretical by the Council itself.  This doesn't rule out BoD theory/speculation, but it's very clear that Trent is not actively teaching that justification CAN happen through the votum alone.

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #241 on: March 28, 2023, 11:09:33 AM »
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  • .
    Supernatural faith can only be received once? :confused:
    What he's (obviously) saying is that you can't RECEIVE supernatural faith if you ALREADY HAVE IT.  You can't receive it two supernatural faiths.
    Just like you can only receive the Sacrament of Baptism once. Right? This has become a very strange thread.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #242 on: March 28, 2023, 11:13:03 AM »
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  • Coming from someone who doesn't understand what a "system of theology" is.  There's no system of theology, just a theological position on one particular subject, and I stuck my name on it to indicate that it's unique.  This is done all the time, to associate a particular position with an individual who came up with it.  It's neither "Feeneyism" nor "Dimondism" nor "BoDism", so this is a label to distinguish it.  I argue that it's what St. Ambrose and some other Fathers held, except that at the time they did not have a term "BoD", which was made up long after them.
    .
    Ah, yes, when you name a theological system (er, position) after yourself you're being traditional and when I copy and paste Trent I'm being self-important. Must be because of how much more learned you are, forgive me. 
    ...
    Am I doing it right?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #243 on: March 28, 2023, 11:16:10 AM »
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  • Just like you can only receive the Sacrament of Baptism once. Right? This has become a very strange thread.
    .
    Even someone who has supernatural faith can have *more* supernatural faith super-added onto their existing 'amount'. That's what happens, for instance, when a catechumen who already has supernatural faith is baptized. 
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #244 on: March 28, 2023, 11:25:50 AM »
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  • Even someone who has supernatural faith can have *more* supernatural faith super-added onto their existing 'amount'. That's what happens, for instance, when a catechumen who already has supernatural faith is baptized.

    Quod gratis affirmatur, gratis et negatur.  Reason that the catechumen asks faith from the Church is precisely because the Sacrament of Baptism is what bestows supernatural faith, and not just "more" of it.  There's no theology anywhere that the Sacrament would give "MORE" supernatural faith, an increase in charity, or anything else along those lines.  Nowhere has an increase of faith been listed by theologians as an effect of the Sacrament of Baptism.  INCREASES of supernatural faith are not conferred ex opere operato by a Sacrament.

    It's very obvious that the Rite assumes that the Catechumen lacks supernatural faith before the Sacrament and then (normally, barring some impediment) has it after the Sacrament.

    You could argue that it's merely a presumption that the Catechumen lacks it, and that it's possible that he has it ahead of time (per BoD theory), but you needn't do violence to the clear intent / understanding of the Rite itself to make it fit your theology.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #245 on: March 28, 2023, 11:29:31 AM »
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  • .
    Ah, yes, when you name a theological system (er, position) after yourself you're being traditional and when I copy and paste Trent I'm being self-important. Must be because of how much more learned you are, forgive me.
    ...
    Am I doing it right?

    Stop lying.  You weren't just copying-pasting.  You were trying to mansplain to everyone else what Trent "really" means and telling them they must reflect until they see the REAL meaning of it.  Your conflation of pasting the text in as being the same as your imposed interpretation of it says a lot.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #246 on: March 28, 2023, 12:01:53 PM »
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  • Quote
    Supernatural faith can only be received once? :confused: title=confused
    Yep.  Trent even points out that no sin removes supernatural faith from the soul.  And obviously Trent is talking about the initial reception of Faith.  You're baptized once and forever.  You get initial Faith only once.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #247 on: March 28, 2023, 12:54:47 PM »
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  • .
    Even someone who has supernatural faith can have *more* supernatural faith super-added onto their existing 'amount'. That's what happens, for instance, when a catechumen who already has supernatural faith is baptized.
    .

    I  think it would be better to speak of it as an increase in justification, which is very intimately connected with faith. And that's what Session VI, Chapter 4 and the whole Session VI is talking about: justification.

    Justification is increased with the receipt of the sacraments, prayer, other good works, etc. That's clearly addressed in Trent Session VI.



    Quote
    Chap. 10. Concerning the Increase of Justification Received

    1535 Dz 803


    Having, therefore, been thus justified and having been made the "friends of God" and "his domestics" (
    Jn 15,15 Ep 2,19), "advancing from virtue to virtue" (Ps 83,8), "they are renewed" (as the Apostle says) "from day to day" (2Co 4,16), that is, by mortifying the members of their flesh (Col 3,5), and by "presenting them as instruments of justice" (Rm 6,13 Rm 6,19), unto sanctification through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church; in this justice received through the grace of Christ "faith cooperating with good works" (Jc 2,22), they increase and are further justified [can. 24 and 32], as it is written: "He that is just, let him be justified still" (Ap 22,11), and again: "Be not afraid to be justified even to death" (Si 18,22), and again: "You see, that by works a man is justified and not by faith only" (Jc 2,24). And this increase of justice Holy Church begs for, when she prays: "Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity" [13th Sun. after Pent.].


    http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/dw5.htm
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #248 on: March 28, 2023, 01:53:17 PM »
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  • But this has nothing to do with Baptism or BOD.  Stay on topic! 

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #249 on: March 28, 2023, 10:03:04 PM »
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  • Here is Trent immediately after the section where preparation is described:
    .
    Note the council does not say that justification *may* follow preparation, it says that it *does* follow the preparation just described.
    .
    The follow up would be the sacrament of baptism which gives the supernatural faith (the instrumental cause).
    The Catholic Faith = the the supernatural faith.
    That's why Catechumens are called 'Catechumens' and not 'the faithful'. Also why we have 'mass of the catechumens' and "mass of the faithful'. Only those baptised are given the supernatural faith.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #250 on: March 30, 2023, 12:46:34 AM »
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  • Here is Trent immediately after the section where preparation is described:
    .
    Note the council does not say that justification *may* follow preparation, it says that it *does* follow the preparation just described.
    .
    Note also the very dense, verbose explanation-- if the truth is simply that a catechumen cannot have faith or justification before baptism, the council does everything to avoid saying just that. The Council could simply have just said what you are saying; instead, it gives a metaphysical treatment of the causes of justification, and identifies baptism as the instrumental cause, distinguishing it from the efficient and meritorious cause (both of which types of causes are metaphysically necessary, whereas an instrumental cause is *not* metaphysically necessary-- see S. Thomas). If you do not understand the significance of this distinction the council makes, I entreat you to ponder and reflect on it.
    .
    Note everywhere you would expect the council to just slam its fist down and identify (as those who deny the possibility of BoD identify) the metaphysically necessary administration of sacramental baptism as the only route of justification, it does something else. It hearkens the metaphysical necessity of the passion, and of the communication of the passion's merits to the Christian/catechumen. Why do you think this is, if the Council intended to deny the possibility of Baptism of Desire?
    .
    As far as the catechumen requesting faith, this is done in the maintenance of Apostolic Tradition. It is not done out of the assumption that catechumens cannot have supernatural faith. The Council says they can.
    Excellent explanation.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #251 on: March 30, 2023, 07:15:26 AM »
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  • Excellent explanation.

    :facepalm: ... it's utterly lame on all counts.  Trent's narrative describing the process of justification is clearly describing the process as it leads to justification.  It doesn't use the expression "may" at every step.  Then the soul "may" conceive contrition for past sins and the soul "may" made the determination to receive the Sacrament.  That's nonsense.  Obviously if any step described by Trent doesn't happy, then there's no justification.

    As for the "very dense, verbose explanation", that's simply due to Trent wanting to rule out 1) all the Protestant errors AND 2) all the Protestant strawmen in mischaracterizing Catholic teaching.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #252 on: March 31, 2023, 07:28:12 AM »
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  • This canon states that both the "sacraments of the New Law" and the "desire thereof" are necessary. Since the canon is in the negative ("without") the term OR is used. (Affirmatives are associated with "and"; negatives are associated with "or".)
    I think I made a mistake here about the 'negative'. The statement is negative not because of 'without' but because of 'anathema'. I think I'm starting to confuse myself.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #253 on: March 31, 2023, 07:57:35 AM »
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  • I think I made a mistake here about the 'negative'. The statement is negative not because of 'without' but because of 'anathema'. I think I'm starting to confuse myself.

    Really, the problem with the Canons is that they're not explicit about wihich (benefits of the) Sacraments are available  or accessible through votum.  We know that it taught this about the Sacrament of Confession.  But the Canons lump all the Sacraments together.

    What's at issue is with "without A or B" construct.  It's ambiguous on its own and could be read the BoD way or could be read the non-BoD way.

    But my chief arguments for the non-BoD way are:

    1) the citation from Sacred Scripture from Our Lord used as proof text, where He teaches that water AND the Holy Ghost are necessary
    2) the logical corollary of the BoD reading would be that justification can be received WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism, and that expression would promote the exact same heresy that Trent is condemning

    These two considerations render the BoD understanding of the passage impossible.

    "No X without A or B" ... this can mean "No X without (A or B)." or it can mean "No X without A or without B."  We've seen examples of both.

    I can't write a letter without a pen or a pencil.  Means that either one suffices.  (equivalent of the BoDer reading of Trent)
    No wedding without a bride or a groom.  Means that both are necessary and that there can be no wedding if either one is missing.  (equivalent of the non-BoDer reading of Trent)

    Context would be required to determine the meaning.  Dimond Brothers sent this passage to a Latin scholar at Oxford, who concurred that either meaning is possible, and that the correct meaning can be known only from context or an individual's prior knowledge.

    I know that "I can't write a letter without a pen or a pencil." means that I need only one or the other (not both) because of my prior knowledge of letter writing and how pens and pencils relate to that.  Same with the bride and groom reading.  I know that both are required for the wedding because I have prior knowledge of what a wedding is.

    There's also context.  So take this example.  Assume that I know absolutely nothing about baseball.  Never heard of it before.

    "We can't play baseball without a bat or a ball."  Hmmm.  Does this mean that I can play if I have EITHER a bat OR a ball or does it mean that I can't play unless I have both of them?  I don't know, because I don't have knowledge or context.

    Now let's add some context.  "We can't play baseball without a bat or a ball, since Jim told me that we need a bat and a ball to play baseball."

    But this is precisely what Trent is doing.  Trent immediately disambiguates the passage by citing the text from the Gospel as "proof text" (that's what the phrase, "as it is written" means).

    [paraphrase] "Justification can't happen without the laver (water) or the votum (Holy Ghost), because Jesus taught that both water and the Holy Ghost are required."

    We could no more read this as meaning "Justification can't happen without EITHER laver/water OR the votum." than we could read "We can't play baseball without a bat or a ball, since Jim told me that we need a bat and a ball to play baseball." as meaning that we can play baseball with either a bat or a ball.

    So this is reason 1 why the BoDer reading doesn't work, the disambiguating proof text provided by Trent.

    For reason number 2, if you say that ...
    Justification cannot happen without EITHER the laver (the Sacrament) OR ELSE the desire for it, the logical corollay is:  "Justification can happen WITHOUT the laver, without the Sacrament of Baptism."  If I say, "I can't write a letter without a pen or a pencil." ... can I write a letter without a pen?  Yes, yes I can ... if I have a pencil.  This expression means that I CAN write a letter without a pen.  And I CAN write a letter without a pencil.

    That's just plain heretical, to assert that I CAN be justified WITHOUT the Sacrament, and this is in fact the same heresy that Trent is condemning by teaching dogmatically that the Sacrament is necessary for salvation.  Even with BoD, if you believe in it, justification does not and cannot happen WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  Even in BoD, the Sacrament remains the instrumentcal cause of justification.  Otherwise, you're a Pelagian who holds that the votum itself, without the Sacrament, can justify, effectively ex opere operantis, i.e. that you can will your own justification and salvation.

    So for both of these very compelling reasons, the BoDer reading of Trent is absolutely untenable.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #254 on: March 31, 2023, 08:38:30 AM »
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  • Dimond Brothers sent this passage to a Latin scholar at Oxford, who concurred that either meaning is possible, and that the correct meaning can be known only from context or an individual's prior knowledge.


    Lad,

    Come on. You're seriously going to point to the word of some anonymous "Latin scholar at Oxford" who likely is not even Catholic over the interpretation of Trent by St. Alphonsus, Cornelius Lapide, etc.,  who read Trent as allowing for justification by desire without the receipt of the sacrament?

    At what point do you ask yourself if this is ridiculous, or at least a huge problem for your position? I would think it would be when an argument needs to resort to anonymous Latin scholars at Oxford regarding support on the interpretation of a Latin text in a Magisterial docuмent, but apparently not.

    What member of the hierarchy, what Catholic theologian agrees with this anonymous Latin scholar? It would be bad enough if you could only find 1 or 2 to put up against St. Alphonsus, Lapide, St. Robert Bellarmine, etc., but you can't even identify one or two, can you? 

    DR




    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.