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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41344 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #225 on: March 28, 2023, 07:55:42 AM »
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  • This is not referring to supernatural faith, which only God can provide.  If we say that BOD can provide supernatural Faith (or that one can have supernatural faith before Baptism), then we are espousing the same error of "salvation by Faith" that the protestants support, who say one can gain salvation by human means (which was condemned by Trent).
    :facepalm:

    There are a large segment of Prots - Calvinists - who believe salvation is by faith alone and not gained by human means at all.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #226 on: March 28, 2023, 08:04:05 AM »
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  • Quote
    There are a large segment of Prots - Calvinists - who believe salvation is by faith alone and not gained by human means at all. 
    Trent defined "human means" as being outside the sacrament.  Or, natural faith.  Or, human faith.

    We can have "faith in God" in the natural sense but we can only have "that faith which saves" if God gives it to us, through the Church, at Baptism.  2 different kinds of Faith.

    Trent explains all of this.  Go re-read it.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #227 on: March 28, 2023, 08:07:17 AM »
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  • Trent defined "human means" as being outside the sacrament.  Or, natural faith.  Or, human faith.

    We can have "faith in God" in the natural sense but we can only have "that faith which saves" if God gives it to us, through the Church, at Baptism.  2 different kinds of Faith.

    Trent explains all of this.  Go re-read it.
    Quote
    CHAPTER VI.



    The manner of Preparation.

    Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.


    Yes, Trent does explain it. 


    That faith is not natural, and it is not "outside the sacrament."
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #228 on: March 28, 2023, 09:30:24 AM »
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  • Quote
    Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice
    Disposed = prepared for.  They have not yet been justified.


    CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that by the said sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred through the act performed, but that faith alone in the divine promise suffices for the obtaining of grace; let him be anathema.

    CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

    CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

    CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #229 on: March 28, 2023, 09:31:04 AM »
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  • Trent defined "human means" as being outside the sacrament.  Or, natural faith.  Or, human faith.

    We can have "faith in God" in the natural sense but we can only have "that faith which saves" if God gives it to us, through the Church, at Baptism.  2 different kinds of Faith.

    Trent explains all of this.  Go re-read it.

    I saw a discussion of this somewhere ... think it may have been Catholic Encyclopedia.  This is referred to by the term "fides initialis", a natural analogue to supernatural faith.  In a sense, there's a natural progression where you have to have human/natural faith before you end up in supernatural faith.  You could also have natural faith and never receive the gift of supernatural.  I recall a certain rabbi that Bishop Williamson knew, and the rabbi basically said that Catholicism was the true religion.  When asked why he didn't conver then, he said that he didn't have the gift of faith.

    Catechumens ASK for faith at their Baptism, where they request SUPERNATURAL faith, but obviously they couldn't even ask for it if they did not have some type of prelminary form of "faith" to begin with.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #230 on: March 28, 2023, 09:57:50 AM »
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  • Yes, Trent does explain it.


    That faith is not natural, and it is not "outside the sacrament."

    Trent doesn't say it's supernatural, nor that it's natural.

    Trent does, as Pax states, list these as DISPOSITIONS for justification, and justification itself follows, the instrumental cause of which is the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Really what's at issue is whether the Sacrament of Baptism can act as instrumental cause via the votum alone.

    Trent also lists the intention to receive the Sacrament as one of these dispositions, after which "justification itself follows".

    It's key that the Sacrament remains the instrumental cause even in a putative BoD.  Otherwise, you have a Pelagian system where people can will themselves into a state of justification.  Of course, when you get into all these "implicit" BoDs, including "implicit faith", the more distant the Sacrament gets from the process, the less credible it is that there's any justification being effected ex opere operato by the Sacrament itself.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #231 on: March 28, 2023, 10:04:12 AM »
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  • Quote
    Otherwise, you have a Pelagian system where people can will themselves into a state of justification.
    Right.  And also no one can "have personal faith" that is supernatural.  You cannot "humanly believe" in a supernatural way.  No matter what you read, heard or think.  No matter even if St Peter appeared to you and instructed you in the Faith, this would not be supernatural Faith, which (along with supernatural Hope and Charity) can ONLY be had through Baptism. 

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #232 on: March 28, 2023, 10:10:46 AM »
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  • Disposed = prepared for.  They have not yet been justified.

    Here is Trent immediately after the section where preparation is described:

    Quote
    This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
    Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.
    For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circuмcision, availeth anything, nor uncircuмcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
    .
    Note the council does not say that justification *may* follow preparation, it says that it *does* follow the preparation just described.
    .
    Note also the very dense, verbose explanation-- if the truth is simply that a catechumen cannot have faith or justification before baptism, the council does everything to avoid saying just that. The Council could simply have just said what you are saying; instead, it gives a metaphysical treatment of the causes of justification, and identifies baptism as the instrumental cause, distinguishing it from the efficient and meritorious cause (both of which types of causes are metaphysically necessary, whereas an instrumental cause is *not* metaphysically necessary-- see S. Thomas). If you do not understand the significance of this distinction the council makes, I entreat you to ponder and reflect on it.
    .
    Note everywhere you would expect the council to just slam it's fist down and identify (as those who deny the possibility of BoD identify) the metaphysically necessary administration of sacramental baptism as the only route of justification, it does something else. It hearkens the metaphysical necessity of the passion, and of the communication of the passion's merits to the Christian/catechumen. Why do you think this is, if the Council intended to deny the possibility of Baptism of Desire?
    .
    As far as the catechumen requesting faith, this is done in the maintenance of Apostolic Tradition. It is not done out of the assumption that catechumens cannot have supernatural faith. The Council says they can. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #233 on: March 28, 2023, 10:17:50 AM »
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  • Note the council does not say that justification *may* follow preparation, it says that it *does* follow the preparation just described.

    :facepalm: ... this is just decribing the process of justification, which culminates in justification itself.  This is just saying what happens when someone is justified.

    Congratulations.  You've just succeeded in turning Trent into a Pelagian manifesto.  Even after ALL the dispositions are in place, there's no necessary justification that results from these human acts of cooperation.  Justification is still a free gift, and the dispositions do not cause justification.  Justification itself is caused by the Sacrament ex opere operato.

    You can argue that the Sacrament can cause justification instrumentally by acting through the votum, but that's as far as you can take this without trying to butcher Trent into teaching Pelgianism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #234 on: March 28, 2023, 10:24:51 AM »
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  • Note also the very dense, verbose explanation-- if the truth is simply that a catechumen cannot have faith or justification before baptism, the council does everything to avoid saying just that. The Council could simply have just said what you are saying; instead, it gives a metaphysical treatment of the causes of justification, and identifies baptism as the instrumental cause, distinguishing it from the efficient and meritorious cause (both of which types of causes are metaphysically necessary, whereas an instrumental cause is *not* metaphysically necessary-- see S. Thomas). If you do not understand the significance of this distinction the council makes, I entreat you to ponder and reflect on it.

    This "verbose" explanation is there precisely to hit all the points related to rejecting the various Protestant errors (and also their distortions of Catholic teaching).

    You can stop with the mansplaining here ... "If you do not understand the significance of this distinction the council makes, I entreat ..."

    I entreat you to get off your high horse pretending that you alone truly understand the Council.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #235 on: March 28, 2023, 10:34:08 AM »
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  • Quote
    Note everywhere you would expect the council to just slam it's fist down and identify....the metaphysically necessary administration of sacramental baptism as the only route of justification, it does something else.
    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

    CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.



    Quote
    It is not done out of the assumption that catechumens cannot have supernatural faith. The Council says they can.
    Catechism 101.  Baptism gives supernatural Faith, which one can only receive once.  Once one has supernatural Faith, they will always have it.  Therefore a catechumen cannot have supernatural Faith both BEFORE and AFTER baptism.  It makes no sense.



    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #236 on: March 28, 2023, 10:39:35 AM »
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  • This "verbose" explanation is there precisely to hit all the points related to rejecting the various Protestant errors (and also their distortions of Catholic teaching).

    You can stop with the mansplaining here ... "If you do not understand the significance of this distinction the council makes, I entreat ..."

    I entreat you to get off your high horse pretending that you alone truly understand the Council.
    .
    This coming from the guy who literally and unironically named a system of theology after himself? Please, it's Lent, and this is far too rich!
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #237 on: March 28, 2023, 10:40:54 AM »
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  • CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

    CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.


    Catechism 101.  Baptism gives supernatural Faith, which one can only receive once.  Once one has supernatural Faith, they will always have it.  Therefore a catechumen cannot have supernatural Faith both BEFORE and AFTER baptism.  It makes no sense.
    .
    Supernatural faith can only be received once? :confused:
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #238 on: March 28, 2023, 10:57:23 AM »
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  • .
    This coming from the guy who literally and unironically named a system of theology after himself? Please, it's Lent, and this is far too rich!

    Coming from someone who doesn't understand what a "system of theology" is.  There's no system of theology, just a theological position on one particular subject, and I stuck my name on it to indicate that it's unique.  This is done all the time, to associate a particular position with an individual who came up with it.  It's neither "Feeneyism" nor "Dimondism" nor "BoDism", so this is a label to distinguish it.  I argue that it's what St. Ambrose and some other Fathers held, except that at the time they did not have a term "BoD", which was made up long after them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #239 on: March 28, 2023, 10:59:04 AM »
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  • .
    Supernatural faith can only be received once? :confused:

    What he's (obviously) saying is that you can't RECEIVE supernatural faith if you ALREADY HAVE IT.  You can't receive it two supernatural faiths.