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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41314 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #210 on: March 25, 2023, 09:46:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on March 25, 2023, 12:48:08 AM
    Is it not many orders of magnitude more absurd that any Catholic could prefer his understanding of Trent to the plethora of learned Doctors and theologians who understand Trent to be teaching Baptism of Desire, the same doctrine taught by the Angelic Doctor, whose Summa was so venerated at the Council, and the Fathers and Doctors of old?

    Plethora my foot.  Father Cekada did a study and could find only about two dozen theologians that even mention the subject, more than half of whom simply mention it in passing, as in, "Yup.  BoD."

    You're entitled to believe in the BoD speculation ... AS THESE DOCTORS HELD IT, as the Church has thus far permitted it.  But if you start babbling on about how infidels can be saved by BoD (which none of these sources affirm), you're a heretic.

    What a pathetic tactic, "the Angelic Doctor, whose Summa was so venerated at the Council".  So what?  That doesn't make him infallible.  He also misfired on the Immaculate Conception, and later theologians have found about 4 dozen errrors in his writings.

    Then you throw in a gratuitous lie about the Church Fathers, as the vast majority of Church Fathers rejected the concept of BoD (and I argue that they all did, excepting the youthful speculation of a young St. Augustine, who then later retracted the opinion).
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #211 on: March 25, 2023, 10:15:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 24, 2023, 01:35:32 PM
    Another serious problem with the BoDer rendering.

    Corollary to your reading is that justification CAN happen WITHOUT the laver, without the Sacrament.  That would be heretical by Trent's own condemnation.  It would be one thing to say that an individual can receive the Sacrament in voto and quite another (heretical) thing to say that justification (and therefore salvation) can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament.

    So Trent is implying the same heresy that it elsewhere condemns?

    :facepalm:

    So who is “your” again? You were replying to me in the post prior to that one.

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #212 on: March 25, 2023, 10:19:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 25, 2023, 09:46:27 AM
    Plethora my foot. 

    I knew you were a . . . Centipede.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #213 on: March 25, 2023, 10:30:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on March 25, 2023, 10:15:27 AM
    :facepalm:

    So who is “your” again? You were replying to me in the post prior to that one.

    OK, then cite the correct post.  Yes, it's your.  You read Trent with the BoDer option ... or have you suddenly rejected BoD?

    There are only two ways to read "withou the laver or the desire", the BoDer way or the other way.  You are a BoDer, so you read it the BoDer way.  Stop being so dense.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #214 on: March 27, 2023, 08:21:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 24, 2023, 08:07:44 AM
    No Pax, Trent never says that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself, only that without them, justification cannot be attained. Trent puts it this way, presumably, because one may partake of the sacraments unworthily hence  sacrilegiously.

    BODers see "no sacrament/no desire = no justification" - as "desire / no sacrament = justification."
    To BODers, desire equals certain justification, which is not what Trent says.
    Not sure if it's been mentioned, from; CHAPTER VII. What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
    "the instru    mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified"

    I don't see how the other guy can say that BoD justifies, when the sacrament (which also requires water) is required for justification as this decree states. Please correct me if I am wrong or have misunderstood something.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #215 on: March 27, 2023, 09:27:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 27, 2023, 08:21:02 PM
    Not sure if it's been mentioned, from; CHAPTER VII. What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
    "the instru    mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified"

    I don't see how the other guy can say that BoD justifies, when the sacrament (which also requires water) is required for justification as this decree states. Please correct me if I am wrong or have misunderstood something.
    .
    Instrumental causes can be substituted for. The substitutable nature of instrumental causes is essentially the explanation the Angelic Doctor gives for how BoD works. 
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #216 on: March 28, 2023, 02:18:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 27, 2023, 09:27:18 PM
    .
    Instrumental causes can be substituted for. The substitutable nature of instrumental causes is essentially the explanation the Angelic Doctor gives for how BoD works.
    The problem I have with that, is that Trent states that, "no man was ever justified" without "faith", and calls the sacrament of baptism the "sacrament of faith".

    If the instrumental cause here (water baptism) can be substituted, then that substitution must also give "faith" or else it does not justify. Are there any decrees/infallible statements referring to BoD as giving faith?

    Also if "the sacrament of baptism" = "the sacrament of faith" then I don't see how BoD could fit here.
    BoD cannot be a sacrament as Trent states there are 7 sacraments and the sacrament of baptism requires water.
    If BoD somehow gives the supernatural virtue of 'faith' then it would reduce the importance of the sacrament of baptism.

    ON THE SACRAMENTS IN GENERAL

    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

    This canon here refers to the necessary need of the sacraments for salvation (though not all of them are needed for everyone) and refuting receiving justification from "faith alone".
    Superfluous here seems to mean "not-needed/unnecessary" as the other definition is "overflow/more than enough" and we can tell from the context that is the case ("if any one saith... are not necessary").

    Though salvation and justification are not the same, you cannot be saved without first being justified.

    This canon states that both the "sacraments of the New Law" and the "desire thereof" are necessary. Since the canon is in the negative ("without") the term OR is used. (Affirmatives are associated with "and"; negatives are associated with "or".)

    I.E
    1. Men obtain the grace of justification without the sacrament or without the desire of said sacrament. - Anathema
    2. Men obtain the grace of justification without the sacrament and without the desire of said sacrament. - Anathema
    3. Men obtain the grace of justification with the sacrament or with the desire of said sacrament. - Anathema
    4. Men obtain the grace of justification with the sacrament and with the desire of said sacrament. - Anathema

    3 and 4 are positive statements so to anathemize (is it anathemize or anathematize?) them makes no sense. Though for 3 it would support BoD but for 4 it would require both the sacrament and the desire for the sacrament.

    1 and 2 are negative statements (like our canon) so to anathematize them makes sense. 2 uses 'AND' so to anathematize it would only be to anathematize the joined variables together (justify without sacrament AND without desire of sacrament) and would not anathematize the two variables separately (justify without sacrament OR justify without desire of sacrament).

    1 (OR) is the correct wording for this negative statement.

    The Canon uses 'OR' (like statement 1). Because as explained above they are anathematizing those who say that justification can gained without the sacrament OR without the desire thereof.

    So;
    One might say you are justified having the sacrament but without having the desire for the sacrament, this is anathema.
    One might say you are justified having the desire for the sacrament but without having the sacrament, this is anathema.

    So you need both. If you only have the sacrament, you are missing the desire. If you only have the desire, you are missing the sacrament.
    (hopefully I articulated it well enough, it took a while but I tried to make it clear)


    A contradiction occurs when it is stated that BoD justifies or in this case can be used as a substitute for the "sacrament of faith".
    If BoD substitutes the "sacrament of faith" (water baptism) then that would make the Sacrament of baptism unnecessary and would also contradict the canon explained above. Because both sacrament and desire is needed. (Because BoD is not a sacrament)
    If BoD justifies then that also contradicts what is explained above, that you need both sacrament and desire.
    Because BoD is not a sacrament it cannot fulfil both conditions needed to be justified.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #217 on: March 28, 2023, 07:28:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 28, 2023, 02:18:27 AM
    The problem I have with that, is that Trent states that, "no man was ever justified" without "faith", and calls the sacrament of baptism the "sacrament of faith".

    If the instrumental cause here (water baptism) can be substituted, then that substitution must also give "faith" or else it does not justify. Are there any decrees/infallible statements referring to BoD as giving faith?
    .
    According to Trent, faith does not only ever come from baptism, but before baptism, when it comes "from hearing" as a divine aid to justification: (Session 6, chap. 5)
    .
    Quote
    Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #218 on: March 28, 2023, 07:31:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 28, 2023, 07:28:05 AM
    According to Trent, faith does not only ever come from baptism, but before baptism, when it comes "from hearing" as a divine aid to justification: (Session 6, chap. 5)

    This is referring to what theologians called fides initialis, a natural analogue to supernatural faith that precedes justification.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #219 on: March 28, 2023, 07:47:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 28, 2023, 07:28:05 AM
    .
    According to Trent, faith does not only ever come from baptism, but before baptism, when it comes "from hearing" as a divine aid to justification: (Session 6, chap. 5)
    .

    Mith,

    Right. But I think you meant Chapter 6:


    Quote
    CHAPTER VI.


    The manner of Preparation.

    Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

    This is consistent with the Catechism: if a catechumen were to die in such a state, he would be saved. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #220 on: March 28, 2023, 07:48:20 AM »
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    • Quote
    If BoD somehow gives the supernatural virtue of 'faith' then it would reduce the importance of the sacrament of baptism.
    Agree.  BOD cannot provide supernatural Faith, as this is only available from Baptism, from God.  No human can will/desire to have anything supernatural, because we aren't God and supernatural things are above us.  If we say that BOD can provide supernatural Faith, then we are espousing the same error of "salvation by Faith" that the protestants support, who say one can gain salvation by human means (which was condemned by Trent).
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #221 on: March 28, 2023, 07:49:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 28, 2023, 07:31:16 AM
    This is referring to what theologians called fides initialis, a natural analogue to supernatural faith that precedes justification.
    .
    Is it? It's described as supernatural as far as I can tell:
    Quote
    excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised
    Note that clearly supernatural hope and charity are described to follow from the same faith therein described. Would you maintain supernatural charity can be had without supernatural faith?
    .

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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #222 on: March 28, 2023, 07:49:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on March 28, 2023, 07:47:27 AM
    Mith,

    Right. But I think you meant Chapter 6:


    This is consistent with the Catechism: if a catechumen were to die in such a state, he would be saved.
    I do, thank you. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #223 on: March 28, 2023, 07:49:53 AM »
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    Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing
    This is not referring to supernatural faith, which only God can provide.  If we say that BOD can provide supernatural Faith (or that one can have supernatural faith before Baptism), then we are espousing the same error of "salvation by Faith" that the protestants support, who say one can gain salvation by human means (which was condemned by Trent).
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #224 on: March 28, 2023, 07:53:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 28, 2023, 07:49:53 AM
    This is not referring to supernatural faith, which only God can provide.  If we say that BOD can provide supernatural Faith (or that one can have supernatural faith before Baptism), then we are espousing the same error of "salvation by Faith" that the protestants support, who say one can gain salvation by human means (which was condemned by Trent).
    .
    I quoted the whole thing precisely because it is susceptible to being quoted out of context and misunderstood as you are misunderstanding. Read the whole thing and ponder it for a day, see if you still think that is what it's saying. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).
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