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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 18876 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #195 on: March 24, 2023, 12:15:41 PM »
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  • Quote
    So the Church, or the godparents, provide what is lacking in the infant (the vow, the desire),
    Yes, because the Church tells us this is allowable.

    Quote
    but the Holy Ghost can't supply for a lack of water?
    The Church has never said this is possible.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #196 on: March 24, 2023, 01:24:00 PM »
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  • ... but the Holy Ghost can't supply for a lack of water?

    So when Our Lord said that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless he has been born (again) of water AND the Holy Ghost, He really meant of water OR the Holy Ghost?

    This is actually decisive in the relevant passage in Trent.

    Trent uses the descriptive term "laver" along with "votum" to connote the water, and then cites as proof text, "as it is written", Our Lord's statement that water AND the Holy Ghost are required.

    This would be tantamount to making Trent say, "justification cannot happen without water OR else just the Holy Ghost because Our Lord taught that water AND the Holy Ghost are required".

    So, as I had mentioned ...

    "without A or B" is somewhat ambiguous and needs context to disambiguate.  And the citation from Our Lord as proof text disambiguates.

    Let's say I know nothing about baseball.

    "We can't play baseball without a ball or a bat."  If I know nothing and have no knowledge of baseball, I could interpret this to mean that I can play if I have one or the other, or that I can't play unless I have both.

    But what if you have?

    "We can't play baseball without a ball or a bat, since Jim told us we need a ball and a bat to play baseball."  To take that now and claim we could play with one or the other would be absurd.

    We have Trent teaching, "Justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum (Holy Ghost), since Our Lord taught that water and the Holy Ghost are required."

    But instead we render it as, "Justification can happen with the laver or else just the votum (Holy Ghost), since Our Lord taught that water and the Holy Ghost are required."  That's absurd.


    Online OABrownson1876

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #197 on: March 24, 2023, 01:32:43 PM »
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  • The Scotist theologian Claude Frassen (d.1711) who was post-Trent, and an expert in the writings of Blessed Duns Scotus, devoted a whole chapter in his tenth volume to the question of the necessity of baptism (De necessitate Baptismi).  Without giving the whole article, I translate his first conclusion:

    "Baptism is necessary by a necessity of means for all men, whether adults or children.  This is determined de fide from the Councils of Milan and Carthage, as Augustine puts forth, Epistle 90, and 92, and from the Council of Trent, Session 7, Can 5., 'If any one will have said, that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.

    But the truth of this conclusion is gathered from the words of Christ in John Chapter 3, 'Unless you will have been born of water,' etc. By such words Christ the Lord signifies, after the promulgation of the Law, that no man is able to gain eternal salvation, unless he will have been born by the water of Baptism.  Such is the teaching as laid forth in Tertullian in his book concerning Baptism, ch. 12, where he says, 'It is prescribed, that no man is able to achieve salvation without Baptism, from this, primarily from the words of Our Lord, 'unless you will have been born again from water, you will have no life.'  Hence the chapter following he (Lord) is speaking concerning those who assert that faith suffices for salvation...By these words (Frassen continues) Tertullian very patently reveals the impious assertion of the Calvinists, who contend that man is able to be justified, even without baptism."

    Later in the article Frassen dissects the words "unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost," commenting that all the fathers (omnes SS. Patres) take the conjunction 'and' not as a disjunctive, but as a copulative word, meaning that both faith and water are necessary.  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #198 on: March 24, 2023, 01:35:32 PM »
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  • Another serious problem with the BoDer rendering.

    Corollary to your reading is that justification CAN happen WITHOUT the laver, without the Sacrament.  That would be heretical by Trent's own condemnation.  It would be one thing to say that an individual can receive the Sacrament in voto and quite another (heretical) thing to say that justification (and therefore salvation) can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament.

    So Trent is implying the same heresy that it elsewhere condemns?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #199 on: March 24, 2023, 01:38:22 PM »
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  • Another serious problem with the BoDer rendering.

    Since justification cannot happen without actual Baptism or the Baptism of Desire, then what of Baptism of Blood?

    If Trent was teaching here about the alleged "Three Baptisms", why no mention of BoB?

    If justification cannot happen without the Sacrament or the desire, then BoB ceases to exist as an independent thing, and we only have 2 Baptisms.  BoB must reduce to a form of BoB ... but no BoD theorists hold that.  To claim that there's a separate BoB that can justify and save would therefore be heretical by your own criteria.

    St. Alphonsus' theory about a BoB that works "quasi ex opere operato" and has the additional effect (vs. BoD) of remitting temporal punishment due to sin, would be heretical, since it's ruled out by this passage in Trent.

    ANSWER:  Trent was NOT teaching about the so-called 3 Baptisms at all, but rather, against the Protestant errors, affirming that both the ex opere operato grace of the Sacrament TOGETHER WITH the cooperation of the free will (the votum) are required for justification.  You'll note that the word "votum" in Latin is derived from the world "to will".

    To say that justification can happen without the Sacrament is to effectively render salvation ex opere operantis (which is Pelagian heresy).


    Online OABrownson1876

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #200 on: March 24, 2023, 01:50:37 PM »
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  • For anyone to presume that a sacrament can exist in voto is, in reality, the denial of the definition of the term sacrament, which is, 'a sensible sign, instituted by Christ, which gives sanctifying grace.'  Just imagine a man receiving the graces of Marriage because he had a 'votum' to receive marriage.  The whole idea is theologically ridiculous.  None of the sacraments can be had by desire, and the only remote example which comes to mind is making an act of perfect contrition in place of sacramental confession, which supplies the grace in place of the sacrament.  But to my mind the Church has never defined "perfect contrition," but theologians have spoken of it.  But "perfect contrition" presumes that one has been previously sacramentally baptized.       
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #201 on: March 24, 2023, 01:53:30 PM »
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  • Hello everyone, just to let everyone know Friarminor isn't associated or support any group out there.



     https://twitter.com/1Friarminor/status/1623510195476340736?s=20 
    If anyone is confused about this, you should contact Friarminor on twitter, he would be happy to help. Take care everybody.  

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #202 on: March 25, 2023, 12:12:14 AM »
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  • So when Our Lord said that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless he has been born (again) of water AND the Holy Ghost, He really meant of water OR the Holy Ghost?
    Our Lord also said "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you". Are there exceptions? Does desire suffice in certain circuмstances, even implicit?

    Again, the Holy Ghost declares "for all have sinned", yet we do believe in the Immaculate Conception, do we not?

    We are not Protestants.

    But why not ask one of the great Scripture scholars of the post-Trent period?

    Cornelius a Lapide (1567-1637), who taught at the Gregorian University in Rome in the years after Trent, gave this explanation of this very verse (John 3:5) in his Great Commentary: "Lastly, born of water ought here to be understood either in actual fact, or by desire. For he who repents of his sins, and desires to be baptised, but either from want of water, or lack of a minister, is not able to receive it, is born again through (ex) the desire and wish for baptism. So the Council of Trent clearly explains this passage (sess 7 can 4 de Sacramentis in Genere)".


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #203 on: March 25, 2023, 12:48:08 AM »
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  • But instead we render it as, "Justification can happen with the laver or else just the votum (Holy Ghost), since Our Lord taught that water and the Holy Ghost are required."  That's absurd.
    Is it not many orders of magnitude more absurd that any Catholic could prefer his understanding of Trent to the plethora of learned Doctors and theologians who understand Trent to be teaching Baptism of Desire, the same doctrine taught by the Angelic Doctor, whose Summa was so venerated at the Council, and the Fathers and Doctors of old?

    It is just impossible to find a Catholic resource that specifically treats of Baptism of Desire that condemns it, just as it is so easy to find an exposition of the Catholic Faith that affirms it.

    Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott teaches under the heading "The Necessity of Baptism", "2. Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism: In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)" There follows a half page explanation. Is there a theology manual that condemns it? Is there a theology manual that pronounces it condemned by the Council of Trent?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #204 on: March 25, 2023, 05:42:30 AM »
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  • Is it not many orders of magnitude more absurd that any Catholic could prefer his understanding of Trent to the plethora of learned Doctors and theologians who understand Trent to be teaching Baptism of Desire, the same doctrine taught by the Angelic Doctor, whose Summa was so venerated at the Council, and the Fathers and Doctors of old?

    It is just impossible to find a Catholic resource that specifically treats of Baptism of Desire that condemns it, just as it is so easy to find an exposition of the Catholic Faith that affirms it.

    Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott teaches under the heading "The Necessity of Baptism", "2. Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism: In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)" There follows a half page explanation. Is there a theology manual that condemns it? Is there a theology manual that pronounces it condemned by the Council of Trent?

    Plenus Venter,

    Because you have the Catholic faith, certainly you agree that for each and every baptized human, including yourself, and no matter the circuмstances, due to it's necessity that Almighty God Himself provided each and everyone one with the time to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it.

    Because you have the Catholic faith, certainly you agree that that it is by the very same Providence that God arranges it for everyone and anyone else who desires or is willing to receive it, because of it's necessity. Because of it's necessity, God even provides it for infants, who are altogether incapable of desiring it.

    As you agree with the above, then certainly you agree that if Almighty God did *not* provide those things, then not a single person, including yourself, including even the Apostles, would have ever been baptized.

    Therefore certainly you agree that that for the future, if Almighty God does not provide those things then not a single person ever will be baptized.

    As such you agree that it is not possible for there to ever be a circuмstance that would prevent God from providing the sacrament to one who desires it.

    So believing all of the above, why go on and on about a BOD, which wholly eliminates God's providence in the matter? "Without Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #205 on: March 25, 2023, 05:50:45 AM »
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  • So believing all of the above, why go on and on about a BOD, which wholly eliminates God's providence in the matter? "Without Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
    Thanks Stubborn. But here's the point. I don't. The Fathers, Doctors, theologians, theology manuals and Catholic doctrinal texts do. 


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #206 on: March 25, 2023, 06:18:00 AM »
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  • Thanks Stubborn. But here's the point. I don't. The Fathers, Doctors, theologians, theology manuals and Catholic doctrinal texts do.
    You don't believe in a BOD or God's Providence in the matter? I presume you don't believe in a BOD.

    That the Fathers, catechisms etc. teach it while de fide teachings of the Church teach contrary only serves to give purpose for the Church, to have the final word in all things always.

    When some idea or teaching does not 100% agree with *all* of her doctrines, it's out of place or in some way contrary, then that idea or teaching is not one of her doctrines no matter who teaches it - even if taught by "an angel from heaven" as St. Paul tells us.

    I like how Fr. Wathen put it in a sermon about NO heretics, had nothing to do with a BOD but I like the way he puts it......

    "...All of you know very well, what God has revealed both in the Old Testament and through Christ and His Apostles, is one doctrine. Not only does it mean one thing, but it is a single, as it were, a single cloth woven from the top so that there are no seams, there is a perfect unity.

    Therefore, anyone who in any way teaches contrary to any one of it’s doctrines, any part of this holy deposit, violates it’s holiness and of course the truth of God.  And if anyone comes forth and presents a doctrine contrary to it, he necessarily rouses the ire of Almighty God because he substitutes his puny human ideas and preferences to the holiness of the Divine Revelation..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #207 on: March 25, 2023, 09:33:18 AM »
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  • For anyone to presume that a sacrament can exist in voto is, in reality, the denial of the definition of the term sacrament, which is, 'a sensible sign, instituted by Christ, which gives sanctifying grace.'  Just imagine a man receiving the graces of Marriage because he had a 'votum' to receive marriage.  The whole idea is theologically ridiculous.  None of the sacraments can be had by desire, and the only remote example which comes to mind is making an act of perfect contrition in place of sacramental confession, which supplies the grace in place of the sacrament.  But to my mind the Church has never defined "perfect contrition," but theologians have spoken of it.  But "perfect contrition" presumes that one has been previously sacramentally baptized.     

    Brownson1876, you should read Brownson, whom I quoted in reply #141. He wrote that in 1847. Before he saw the "1876" light that you're shining here?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #208 on: March 25, 2023, 09:39:22 AM »
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  • Another serious problem with the BoDer rendering.

    Corollary to your reading is that justification CAN happen WITHOUT the laver, without the Sacrament.  That would be heretical by Trent's own condemnation.  It would be one thing to say that an individual can receive the Sacrament in voto and quite another (heretical) thing to say that justification (and therefore salvation) can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament.

    So Trent is implying the same heresy that it elsewhere condemns?

    My reading? We're arguing about catechumen and whether they can be justified without receiving the sacrament per the Catechism of Trent. They desire the sacrament.

    Straw manning again? You must be a hay farmer.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #209 on: March 25, 2023, 09:43:26 AM »
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  • My reading? We're arguing about catechumen and whether they can be justified without receiving the sacrament per the Catechism of Trent. They desire the sacrament.

    Straw manning again? You must be a hay farmer.


    What are you babbling about?

    I clearly used the expression "BoDer rendering", by which I was referring to one of the two possible readings of "without the laver or the votum".  I started by saying this "without A or B" can be interpreted and read two ways, one being the BoDer reading, the other the non-BoD reading.  Nowhere did I mention YOU, as in "MY" reading anywhere in the passage you quoted.

    And your nonsense about "receiving" has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.

    With the BoDer reading, the logical corollary is that someone CAN be justified WITHOUT the laver, and the formulation that one can be justified / saved WITHOUT the Sacrament is condemned as heretical by the same Council.  BoDer reading would have Trent implicitly teaching the same heresy they're condemning.  Even in a BoD scenario, if you believe in it, the justification DOES NOT AND CANNOT happen WITHOUT the laver.  That's heresy.  In BoD, it's still the laver that must remain the instrumental cause of justification, received in voto.  So in no sense would justification take place WITHOUT the laver.

    This is actually a smoking-gun argument that the BoDer reading of the contested passage in Trent is clearly wrong.