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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41307 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #180 on: March 24, 2023, 07:57:30 AM »
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  • Sorry. Nowhere in what you quoted from Trent does it say that "only the sacrament gets us to heaven." It says that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.

    The word "salvation" can mean salvation from eternal Hell, but with a detour through Purgatory first. Or it can mean salvation from all punishment in the afterlife, meaning no Purgatory. I believe that Canon V is using "salvation" in the second sense. Trent does not specify, so we just don't know from Canon V itself, which sense was intended.

    You grossly misdefined salvation earlier and now you're telling us what the term means?

    All Trent says is that there can be no justification without the Sacrament and the intention to receive it.  There's actually a CANON in Trent that anathematizes the proposition that the Sacrament justifies even someone who receives it unwillingly.  You can claim that this means without the Sacrament or at least the intention to receive it, but that is not evident from the text.  Trent could have used the same expression it did for Confession, "vel saltem" (or at least by, with the non-disjunctive "or", vel), Trent could have phrased it positively that someone CAN be justified by the Sacrament or the intention to receive it, but the "cannot without" phraseology speaks to necessary cause rather than sufficient cause.

    There's a huge difference between "can with" and "cannot without", the first one speaking to sufficient cause, the latter to necessary cause.

    "I can do A with B."  B suffices to do A.
    "I cannot do A without B."  I might need other things as well, and B by itself doesn't necessarily suffice.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #181 on: March 24, 2023, 08:07:44 AM »
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  • I think you misworded this.
    No Pax, Trent never says that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself, only that without them, justification cannot be attained. Trent puts it this way, presumably, because one may partake of the sacraments unworthily hence  sacrilegiously.

    BODers see "no sacrament/no desire = no justification" - as "desire / no sacrament = justification."
    To BODers, desire equals certain justification, which is not what Trent says. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #182 on: March 24, 2023, 08:20:52 AM »
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  • Quote
    Trent never says that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself
    You're still poorly wording this idea.  As is, what you wrote is wrong.  A sacrament doesn't give justification/grace?  That's their essential purpose!  That's the only reason they exist.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #183 on: March 24, 2023, 08:21:35 AM »
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  • No Pax, Trent never says that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself, only that without them, justification cannot be attained. Trent puts it this way, presumably, because one may partake of the sacraments unworthily hence  sacrilegiously.

    BODers see "no sacrament/no desire = no justification" - as "desire / no sacrament = justification."
    To BODers, desire equals certain justification, which is not what Trent says.

    Right, the text itself says that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire to receive it.  What's at issue is that there are two interpretations of this, with the BoDers hold that this means "either ... or", and anti-BoDers that it means (when flipped back to positive terms) "and".

    "We cannot have the wedding without the bride or the groom".  This clearly means that both are required and not that either one would suffice. (non-BoD interpretation)

    "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  This clearly means that either one would suffice. (BoD interpretation)

    I've gone through and examined both possibilities and I find huge problems with the EITHER ... OR reading that I can get into later.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #184 on: March 24, 2023, 09:43:55 AM »
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  • Right, the text itself says that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire to receive it.  What's at issue is that there are two interpretations of this, with the BoDers hold that this means "either ... or", and anti-BoDers that it means (when flipped back to positive terms) "and".

    "We cannot have the wedding without the bride or the groom".  This clearly means that both are required and not that either one would suffice. (non-BoD interpretation)

    "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  This clearly means that either one would suffice. (BoD interpretation)

    I've gone through and examined both possibilities and I find huge problems with the EITHER ... OR reading that I can get into later.

    So say you and Stubborn, etc. Yet if there can't be justification without both the water AND the desire, what about children? They are justified by the water, and do not have the desire. Yet they are justified. 

    I can anticipate your possible answer, but I'll wait to hear from you. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #185 on: March 24, 2023, 09:57:26 AM »
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  • So say you and Stubborn, etc. Yet if there can't be justification without both the water AND the desire, what about children? They are justified by the water, and do not have the desire. Yet they are justified.

    I can anticipate your possible answer, but I'll wait to hear from you.


    Uhm, the answer is obvious, because this section is explicitly referring to the justification of adults, and says so at the beginning and then spends many paragraphs discussing the necessary dispositions to receive the Sarament of Baptism before this particular sentence.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #186 on: March 24, 2023, 10:36:27 AM »
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  • You're still poorly wording this idea.  As is, what you wrote is wrong.  A sacrament doesn't give justification/grace?  That's their essential purpose!  That's the only reason they exist.
    Ok, the way Trent worded it the way they did, is because the sacraments may be received unworthily, as such Trent never says there is certainty of justification or salvation, only that without them there is no justification. They worded it the same way when they mention a desire for the sacraments.

    Trent says: Justification "cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof."

    Trent is NOT saying Justification "will be effected with the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof" presumably Trent, in her wisdom, worded it this way because the sacrament of baptism my be received unworthily. Although this is how BODers read it, but that's only apparently because they simply cannot see or understand it any other way, they certainly do not see it as Trent taught it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #187 on: March 24, 2023, 10:42:53 AM »
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  • .
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #188 on: March 24, 2023, 10:44:39 AM »
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  • Uhm, the answer is obvious, because this section is explicitly referring to the justification of adults, and says so at the beginning and then spends many paragraphs discussing the necessary dispositions to receive the Sarament of Baptism before this particular sentence.

    It sure doesn't appear obvious that it applies only to adults, but the contrary appears obvious, i.e. that it applies to all men.

    Quote
    CHAPTER III.


    Who are justified through Christ.

    But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.

    CHAPTER IV.

    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    CHAPTER V.

    On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds.

    The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults . . .

    Trent makes the point that all men, as the seed of Adam and by "propagation" itself, are "unjust." Section III. It again refers to a "state" of  injustice into which they are "born (as) a child of the first Adam." Section IV. This patently includes children: all men simply by birth.

    In then goes on to note a distinction "in adults," where there is a preparation necessary - catechesis, etc. Section V. 

    Ummm,  it appears "obvious" that you're wrong in exempting children from the necessity for justification identified in Section IV.

    So  the "desire" is not necessary for some men, and Trent doesn't indicate that there must be water AND desire for the justification for all  men.

    The "or" of the "water or desire" of Section IV appears to indeed be disjunctive for some,  e.g. children at the least.

    So then the translation from an unjust "child of Adam" to a state of grace is affected without both the water and desire for some men. Which is a bit of problem for the necessary Feeneyite reading. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #189 on: March 24, 2023, 10:55:42 AM »
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    what about children? They are justified by the water, and do not have the desire.
    That's why the Church has Godparents.  They make a promise to raise the child Catholic if the parents are lax.  The Godparents also provide the desire, as a proxy, for the child.


    It's also why the Church forbids baptism of children into non-catholic/anti-catholic homes.  Desire is necessary.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #190 on: March 24, 2023, 11:30:08 AM »
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  • It sure doesn't appear obvious that it applies only to adults, but the contrary appears obvious, i.e. that it applies to all men.

    That term "impious" right before the disputed statement is a theological term never applied to those only in Original Sin.  Session VI (this decree) was about justification of adults.  Session V dealt with the justification of infants through Baptism.

    Aside from that, St. Alphonsus says that any necessary votum is supplied in infant Baptism by the parents/godparents.  This is why you can't baptize an infant against the wishes of the parents unless he's in danger of death, in which case the Church supplies the votum.  Why do you think that in Baptism, the "infant" is asked, "What do you seek from the Church?"  "Do you wish to be baptized?"  Godparents then respond on behalf of the infant.  So you need to try something else.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #191 on: March 24, 2023, 11:30:45 AM »
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  • That's why the Church has Godparents.  They make a promise to raise the child Catholic if the parents are lax.  The Godparents also provide the desire, as a proxy, for the child.


    It's also why the Church forbids baptism of children into non-catholic/anti-catholic homes.  Desire is necessary.

    Sorry.  You beat me to it.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #192 on: March 24, 2023, 11:40:42 AM »
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  • Of course we need to expose the hypocritical dishonesty of Decem, who holds that Ecuмenical Councils can err except when they're explicitly defining something, but then tries to adduce a narrative section of an Ecuмenical Council as proof of something when there's nothing being defined here.  There's no, "unless someone says that justification can be received by the desire alone, let him be anathema." in the Canons section associated wiith this decree on justification.  At best, even if one were to concede the BoDer interpretation of the passage, this passage is leaving the question open as a possibility ... as even the poster ByzCath (who's pro BoD admitted).  There's no positive definition of BoD anywhere in Church history ... which is why for every BoDer you get a different definition of what it is.  One does not give the assent of faith to a concept "BoD" but to specific propositions, and there's no proposition or set of propositions to which the slippery and amorphous BoD speculation can be reduced.  That's prima facie evidence the Church has defined it.  Nor can it be defined, since there's zero evidence that BoD was revealed to anyone.  It's made up, total speculation.  And it will be condemned by the Church one day, or at least forbidden.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #193 on: March 24, 2023, 11:56:00 AM »
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  • That's why the Church has Godparents.  They make a promise to raise the child Catholic if the parents are lax.  The Godparents also provide the desire, as a proxy, for the child.


    It's also why the Church forbids baptism of children into non-catholic/anti-catholic homes.  Desire is necessary.

    So Section IV does apply to infants?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #194 on: March 24, 2023, 12:02:19 PM »
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  • That term "impious" right before the disputed statement is a theological term never applied to those only in Original Sin.  Session VI (this decree) was about justification of adults.  Session V dealt with the justification of infants through Baptism.

    Aside from that, St. Alphonsus says that any necessary votum is supplied in infant Baptism by the parents/godparents.  This is why you can't baptize an infant against the wishes of the parents unless he's in danger of death, in which case the Church supplies the votum.  Why do you think that in Baptism, the "infant" is asked, "What do you seek from the Church?"  "Do you wish to be baptized?"  Godparents then respond on behalf of the infant.  So you need to try something else.

    So the Church, or the godparents, provide what is lacking in the infant (the vow, the desire), but the Holy Ghost can't supply for a lack of water?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.