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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64564 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #180 on: March 24, 2023, 07:57:30 AM »
Sorry. Nowhere in what you quoted from Trent does it say that "only the sacrament gets us to heaven." It says that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.

The word "salvation" can mean salvation from eternal Hell, but with a detour through Purgatory first. Or it can mean salvation from all punishment in the afterlife, meaning no Purgatory. I believe that Canon V is using "salvation" in the second sense. Trent does not specify, so we just don't know from Canon V itself, which sense was intended.

You grossly misdefined salvation earlier and now you're telling us what the term means?

All Trent says is that there can be no justification without the Sacrament and the intention to receive it.  There's actually a CANON in Trent that anathematizes the proposition that the Sacrament justifies even someone who receives it unwillingly.  You can claim that this means without the Sacrament or at least the intention to receive it, but that is not evident from the text.  Trent could have used the same expression it did for Confession, "vel saltem" (or at least by, with the non-disjunctive "or", vel), Trent could have phrased it positively that someone CAN be justified by the Sacrament or the intention to receive it, but the "cannot without" phraseology speaks to necessary cause rather than sufficient cause.

There's a huge difference between "can with" and "cannot without", the first one speaking to sufficient cause, the latter to necessary cause.

"I can do A with B."  B suffices to do A.
"I cannot do A without B."  I might need other things as well, and B by itself doesn't necessarily suffice.


Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #181 on: March 24, 2023, 08:07:44 AM »
I think you misworded this.
No Pax, Trent never says that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself, only that without them, justification cannot be attained. Trent puts it this way, presumably, because one may partake of the sacraments unworthily hence  sacrilegiously.

BODers see "no sacrament/no desire = no justification" - as "desire / no sacrament = justification."
To BODers, desire equals certain justification, which is not what Trent says. 


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #182 on: March 24, 2023, 08:20:52 AM »

Quote
Trent never says that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself
You're still poorly wording this idea.  As is, what you wrote is wrong.  A sacrament doesn't give justification/grace?  That's their essential purpose!  That's the only reason they exist.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #183 on: March 24, 2023, 08:21:35 AM »
No Pax, Trent never says that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself, only that without them, justification cannot be attained. Trent puts it this way, presumably, because one may partake of the sacraments unworthily hence  sacrilegiously.

BODers see "no sacrament/no desire = no justification" - as "desire / no sacrament = justification."
To BODers, desire equals certain justification, which is not what Trent says.

Right, the text itself says that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire to receive it.  What's at issue is that there are two interpretations of this, with the BoDers hold that this means "either ... or", and anti-BoDers that it means (when flipped back to positive terms) "and".

"We cannot have the wedding without the bride or the groom".  This clearly means that both are required and not that either one would suffice. (non-BoD interpretation)

"I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  This clearly means that either one would suffice. (BoD interpretation)

I've gone through and examined both possibilities and I find huge problems with the EITHER ... OR reading that I can get into later.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #184 on: March 24, 2023, 09:43:55 AM »
Right, the text itself says that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire to receive it.  What's at issue is that there are two interpretations of this, with the BoDers hold that this means "either ... or", and anti-BoDers that it means (when flipped back to positive terms) "and".

"We cannot have the wedding without the bride or the groom".  This clearly means that both are required and not that either one would suffice. (non-BoD interpretation)

"I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  This clearly means that either one would suffice. (BoD interpretation)

I've gone through and examined both possibilities and I find huge problems with the EITHER ... OR reading that I can get into later.

So say you and Stubborn, etc. Yet if there can't be justification without both the water AND the desire, what about children? They are justified by the water, and do not have the desire. Yet they are justified. 

I can anticipate your possible answer, but I'll wait to hear from you.