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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64564 times)

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #175 on: March 23, 2023, 07:56:56 PM »

Here's the logic from Trent:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Major 1:  Water is necessary for baptism (doctrine)
Major 2:  Baptism is necessary for salvation (doctrine)
Minor 1:  BOD is not a sacrament, nor does it replace water baptism (fact)
Minor 2:  Trent mentions "desire" in the section on justification.
Conclusion 1:  Water is necessary, as part of baptism, for salvation.
Conclusion 2:  BOD can provide justification but not salvation, because it's not a sacrament.
Conclusion 3:  What happens to those who die justified but pre-baptism?  Trent does not say.  In absence of Trent's guidance, we cannot say that BOD justification provides heaven.
The beginning of Session 7 Council of Trent: "The most holy sacraments of the Church, through which all true justification begins, or being begun is increased, or being lost is restored."

Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #176 on: March 23, 2023, 08:42:16 PM »

Here's the logic from Trent:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Major 1:  Water is necessary for baptism (doctrine)
Major 2:  Baptism is necessary for salvation (doctrine)
Minor 1:  BOD is not a sacrament, nor does it replace water baptism (fact)
Minor 2:  Trent mentions "desire" in the section on justification.
Conclusion 1:  Water is necessary, as part of baptism, for salvation.
Conclusion 2:  BOD can provide justification but not salvation, because it's not a sacrament.
Conclusion 3:  What happens to those who die justified but pre-baptism?  Trent does not say.  In absence of Trent's guidance, we cannot say that BOD justification provides heaven.

Sorry. Nowhere in what you quoted from Trent does it say that "only the sacrament gets us to heaven." It says that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.

The word "salvation" can mean salvation from eternal Hell, but with a detour through Purgatory first. Or it can mean salvation from all punishment in the afterlife, meaning no Purgatory. I believe that Canon V is using "salvation" in the second sense. Trent does not specify, so we just don't know from Canon V itself, which sense was intended.



Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #177 on: March 23, 2023, 09:02:56 PM »
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Sorry. Nowhere in what you quoted from Trent does it say that "only the sacrament gets us to heaven." It says that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.
Heaven = salvation.  Baptism = necessary for salvation/heaven.  Same thing.

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The word "salvation" can mean salvation from eternal Hell, but with a detour through Purgatory first.
Ok, but Purgatory is not an eternal place; it ends when the world ends.  Thus, there are only 2 "ending spots" - heaven or hell.

a.  If you are saved from hell, you necessary end up in heaven.  You just described it indirectly.  "Saved from hell" = "Saved in Heaven" = "Salvation in Heaven".
b.  Detour in Purgatory = you end up in Heaven.  Salvation = heaven.

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Or it can mean salvation from all punishment in the afterlife, meaning no Purgatory.
So no purgatory = go directly to heaven.  Salvation = Heaven.

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I believe that Canon V is using "salvation" in the second sense. Trent does not specify, so we just don't know from Canon V itself, which sense was intended.
First sense or second sense...it doesn't matter.  The end result is Heaven.  Salvation = Heaven.


I've never heard anyone try to say these 2 words mean different things.  "Salvation" is the process or adverb which describes one getting to heaven.  But the word is solely connected to heaven.  You only get saved to go to heaven (eventually); no where else.  If someone attains salvation, they attain heaven.  They are 100% related.

1.  The sacrament = necessary for salvation = necessary for heaven.
2.  BOD is not the sacrament.
3.  BOD cannot provide salvation in heaven.  (Purgatory is irrelevant because it's temporary).

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #178 on: March 24, 2023, 04:28:15 AM »
Trent clearly states that "the desire for [baptism]" confers "Justification." Trent did not say "the desire for Baptism" confers "'Salvation." This is an important distinction. Also, the exact definition of "the desire for baptism" is not provided in Trent. Does that refer to "explicit" or "implicit" desire. That question was left in the realm of theological discussion after Trent.
This is wrong Angelus, this is where BODers go off the wall.

What Trent clearly states, is condemning the idea that without the desire thereof justification is attained. This is condemned with anathema.

Trent did not say or mean the bolded above. Trent never even says anywhere that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself, only that without them justification cannot be attained. 

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #179 on: March 24, 2023, 06:59:37 AM »

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Trent never even says anywhere that justification is conferred with the sacrament itself,
I think you misworded this.