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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64576 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #150 on: March 23, 2023, 01:49:49 PM »
Here's the simple problem with your view on BOD:  If St Alphonsus contradicts Pope Innocent on BOD, one of them is MAJORLY wrong.  Logic would tell us that the Pope's teaching is greater, so St Alphonsus is wrong.  Since you agree with St Alphonsus, that also makes you wrong. 

This serious contradiction is what Ladislaus is pointing out.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #151 on: March 23, 2023, 02:00:10 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 23, 2023, 01:38:22 PM
Angelus, are you actually arguing that the "state of grace" post-baptism is the same as post-confession?  :facepalm:

I am not "arguing" it, I am restating what the Council of Trent says.

State of Grace has a standard definition in Catholic theology (I am not quoting from Trent here): "Condition of a person who is free from mortal sin and pleasing to God. It is the state of being in God's friendship and the necessary condition of the soul at death in order to attain heaven."

Immediately post-baptism, the baptised is in that same kind of "state of grace." He is "free from mortal sin and pleasing to God." And Trent Session 6, Chapter 14 calls the Sacrament of Penance "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace." So both the Sacrament of Baptism and the effect of Sacramental Absolution put the soul in a "state of grace." However, the Sacrament of Baptism ALSO remits all temporal debt. While Sacramental Absolution DOES NOT remit all temporal debt.

Note that this discussion of the "second plank" is in the Session on Justification that we have been discussing regarding BoD. Both the "second plank" and BoD have the same exact effect. They "justify" the sinner. They put the soul in a "state of grace" but do not, by themselves, remit all temporal debt. Only the Sacrament of Baptism remits all temporal debt.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #152 on: March 23, 2023, 02:07:05 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 23, 2023, 01:49:49 PM
Here's the simple problem with your view on BOD:  If St Alphonsus contradicts Pope Innocent on BOD, one of them is MAJORLY wrong.  Logic would tell us that the Pope's teaching is greater, so St Alphonsus is wrong.  Since you agree with St Alphonsus, that also makes you wrong. 

This serious contradiction is what Ladislaus is pointing out.

St. Alphonsus is a Doctor of the Church. Is Pope Innocent a Doctor of the Church?

A single Pope's teaching is not necessarily greater than the teaching of a Doctor of the Church. You really need to understand the concept of the Magisterium better. There are only two types of INFALLIBLE Magisterium: 1) Extraordinary and 2) Ordinary and Universal. The other level of Magisterium, called the "Authentic Magisterium" of a particular Pope is not and has never been held by the Church to be INFALLIBLE.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #153 on: March 23, 2023, 02:09:59 PM »
Ok, so you're saying that Trent/St Alphonsus are to be followed on BOD and everyone else (St Augustine, St Thomas, St Bellarmine, Pope Innocent III, etc) are to be rejected?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #154 on: March 23, 2023, 02:21:35 PM »
Quote from: Angelus on March 23, 2023, 02:07:05 PM
St. Alphonsus is a Doctor of the Church. Is Pope Innocent a Doctor of the Church?

A single Pope's teaching is not necessarily greater than the teaching of a Doctor of the Church. You really need to understand the concept of the Magisterium better. There are only two types of INFALLIBLE Magisterium: 1) Extraordinary and 2) Ordinary and Universal. The other level of Magisterium, called the "Authentic Magisterium" of a particular Pope is not and has never been held by the Church to be INFALLIBLE.

:facepalm:  Papal Magisterium outweighs any opinion of a Doctor of the Church.  He's only a Doctor because some Pope designated him a Doctor.  And you're trying to lecture us condescendingly about needing to understand the Magisterium?  So a single Pope's opinion is not infallible but that of a Doctor is?  But you have a conundrum, because this Doctor of the Church declared that a similar letter by Pope Innocent II was infallible.  Or maybe the Pope was not infallible in making St. Alphonsus a Doctor of the Church.  What a hot mess.

But even you would have to recognize that the Council of Trent trumps a Doctor of the Church, and the teaching is clear.

There's no initial justification without rebirth/regeneration.

Rebirth/regeneration puts the soul into a state that it would enter heaven immediately and without delay, without any stain or punishment due to sin remaining.

Apart from that, St. Alphonsus has zero proof for his assertion that BoD does not remit temporal punishment do to sin.  That's merely his speculation ... and it's clearly wrong when compared against the teaching of the Council of Trent.  But perhaps you'll claim now that St. Alphonsus trumps the Council of Trent too.

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