Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64605 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #145 on:** March 23, 2023, 01:26:46 PM »

Quote

So you use an "the letter of a Pope" as your authority. That's fine. Then, you reject the Pope's primary point (that BoD is part of Catholic Magisterium) as having no authority. But you accept the Pope's secondary point (that BoD sends the person directly to Heaven). You then use his secondary point, which is dependent on the primary point, to determine what is a heretical in what I said.

His point is, isn't a Pope's magisterium greater than St Alphonsus' opinion? Yes. So, if one is a BOD'er, then to contradict the Pope would be heresy.

You say that purgatory is required of BOD. The pope says no. Ergo, in the BOD world, you are a heretic.

Angelus · « **Reply #146 on:** March 23, 2023, 01:31:27 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on March 23, 2023, 08:12:38 AM

These two passages from Trent cited by the Dimond Brothers completely destroy the notion that there can be [initial] justification without remission of all punishment due to sin:

Simple syllogism. Initial Justification (vs. justification of the fallen in Confession) requires being born again. Being born again means that there is nothing in someone that God hates so much so that "nothing may delay them from entry into heaven" (echoing Innocent III here)

Those "two passages from Trent" that you quote from Session 6, Chapter 3 are further qualified in Chapter 4 directly below that, where Trent discusses the "bath of regeneration or the desire for it."

Trent says the "this transition from the state in which man is born a son of the first Adam to the state of grace and adoption as sons of God through the second Adam" cannot take place without EITHER the "bath of regeneration or the desire for it." The "bath" is water baptism. The "desire for it" is BoD. Both of these methods result, according to Trent in "this transition from the state in which man is born a son of the first Adam to the state of grace and adoption as sons of God through the second Adam." In other words, the person is in "a state of grace" rather than a "state of mortal sin."

Now, we use those two states all the time in normal conversation as Catholics. After I go to confession and confess my sins, I am in "a state of grace" but I may very well, at the same time, have the debt for those forgiven sins that I must pay off through penance. So, the language of Trent actually supports the view of St. Alphonsus (which is my own view) that you claim is made up "out of thin air."

Are you sure you want to keep going with this?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #147 on:** March 23, 2023, 01:38:22 PM »

Angelus, are you actually arguing that the "state of grace" post-baptism is the same as post-confession?

Angelus · « **Reply #148 on:** March 23, 2023, 01:41:30 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 23, 2023, 01:26:46 PM

His point is, isn't a Pope's magisterium greater than St Alphonsus' opinion? Yes. So, if one is a BOD'er, then to contradict the Pope would be heresy.

You say that purgatory is required of BOD. The pope says no. Ergo, in the BOD world, you are a heretic.

But I thought you and Ladislaus said that BoD ITSELF was heresy, no? If that is the case, then you and Ladislaus must be saying that Pope Innocent is "a heretic."

Please tell me how you are not saying that. Please just focus on BoD itself in the statement of Pope Innocent, which you and Ladislaus claim is a statement of such Magisterial authority that anyone disagreeing with ANYTHING in it would become, in your words, "a heretic."

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #149 on:** March 23, 2023, 01:44:35 PM »

Angelus, do you not understand hypothetical examples?

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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64605 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Angelus

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Pax Vobis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Angelus

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Pax Vobis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire