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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41246 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2023, 08:05:48 AM »
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  • If I believed in BoD, I would have to concur with Innocent III that it remits temporal punishment due to sin also.

    There can be no entry into the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again.  Rebirth clearly means regeneration (where the entire creature is renewed), and Trent taught that initial justification is a regeneration and then that regeneration entails complete remission of all sin and of all punishment due to sin.

    This made-up theory that BoD doesn't remit temporal punishment due to sin is highly problematic.

    This here is an extremely solid argument that I can find no fault with, except that it doesn't refute BoD per se, but does clearly refute the notion of BoD that holds temporal punishment is not remitted by it:
    [VATICAN CATHOLIC DOT COM]/man-must-regenerated-refutes-baptism-desire/

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #136 on: March 23, 2023, 08:12:38 AM »
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  • These two passages from Trent cited by the Dimond Brothers completely destroy the notion that there can be [initial] justification without remission of all punishment due to sin:

    Quote
    Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 3: “But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, SO UNLESS THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST THEY WOULD NEVER BE JUSTIFIED, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”

    Council of Trent, Sess. 5, Original Sin, # 5: “If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema.  FOR, IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.”

    Simple syllogism.  Initial Justification (vs. justification of the fallen in Confession) requires being born again.  Being born again means that there is nothing in someone that God hates so much so that "nothing may delay them from entry into heaven" (echoing Innocent III here)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #137 on: March 23, 2023, 09:10:52 AM »
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  • If BOD'ers would simply try to explain it ONLY using Trent's words, I think the theory would be drastically different than is understood today.  Most of them have never read the entire section on justification so they don't even know how Trent defines it.  

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #138 on: March 23, 2023, 09:19:50 AM »
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  • Then you need to write better, because you conflated your obsession with the Roman Catechism with St. Peter Canisius, even though there's currently no known link between the two ... not unlike when you tried to conflate the Rheims comment with the Catechism.

    You read what you what to see in the text you're reading. It's of a piece with your reducing the argument of your opponent to the straw man caricature you have in your mind of any position that is somewhat similar to his. 

    Here's what I said:


    Quote
    Can you cite a text where St. Peter Canisius "ruled out" salvation for catechumens who died before baptism, which is what those who read the Catechism in favor of BOD argue?

    You even quoted it in your response to it in post #117. It refers to the reading of the Catechism by others:facepalm:

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #139 on: March 23, 2023, 09:46:59 AM »
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  • That would seem to be a valid fourth explanation.  Can you point to any Catholic sources that explain that some of what a council publishes on doctrine is not infallible, and that the other infallible parts are protected from being misunderstood by anyone?
    This explanation doesn't work either. It has to presume St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus Liguori, and the rest only read the explanations, and didn't read the canons/anathemas, which is absurd.  Even if it was true that the Council's explanations aren't protected from being misunderstood, but its canons/anathemas are, those saints and theologians obviously didn't understand those canons/anathemas as being contrary to BOD.  If those canons/anathemas are clearly contrary to BOD and guaranteed from being misunderstood, then St. Robert, St. Alphonsus, and the rest still misunderstood what is guaranteed from being misunderstood.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #140 on: March 23, 2023, 09:54:15 AM »
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  • Right.  No dogma is "protected from being misunderstood" because a misunderstanding is due to the human error, lack of knowledge and/or poor intelligence.  Infallibility means that all dogmas/doctrines/infallible decrees are protected from error/being wrong.  That is, they are true. 

    The issue of understanding these truths is a matter of human ability, energy, effort.  Those that are properly trained/educated can readily understand doctrines.  Those that are not, have to learn/study.  That's why catechisms are created...to explain complex ideas.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #141 on: March 23, 2023, 09:56:03 AM »
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  • These two passages from Trent cited by the Dimond Brothers completely destroy the notion that there can be [initial] justification without remission of all punishment due to sin:

    Simple syllogism.  Initial Justification (vs. justification of the fallen in Confession) requires being born again.  Being born again means that there is nothing in someone that God hates so much so that "nothing may delay them from entry into heaven" (echoing Innocent III here)

    "Simple syllogism." There is more than a simple syllogism being involved in interpretation here. 

    We have a thread here discussing the schema to Vatican II. As is known, the schema were the "conservative" and "traditional" preparatory docuмents prepared for the Council under the supervision of Cardinal Ottaviani. I posted excerpts from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church schema. 

    In those excerpts, the Holy Office letter of 1949 is cited for authority. Clearly, Ottaviani and the fathers/theologians who prepared the schema believed the Letter to have magisterial authority. Sure, I know the letter is not in the Acta, and I've attacked it in the past as well, but, again, the hierarchy thought it to be magisterial and cited it in the preparatory docs to V2.

    It clearly support BOD and reads the Council of Trent like "BODers":

    Quote
    In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (<Denzinger>, nn. 797, 807).

    https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/letter-to-the-archbishop-of-boston-2076

    The Holy Office Letter also said:


    Quote
    For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.

    So it's not simply the "BODers" going with saints and theologians on the issue of BOD. You can dismiss the Holy Office Letter as magisterium, but Ottaviani clearly believed it to be authoritative. 

    The Church has never defined the parameters of BOD, and I don't believe any magisterial text has referenced whether, if one has benefited from a BOD of initial justification unto salvation, their temporal or purgatorial punishment is or is not eliminated. So taking St. Alphonsus or whomever to task on that is irrelevant. Pope Innocent may be right after all.

    The Church has indicated that a BOD can avail to grace and righteousness, i.e. justification. And it has indicated that anyone who dies justified is saved. As I've said before, that's a simple concept that is Church teaching. You can rightly attack unjustified liberal expansions of the concept, as I do, but the rejection of the concept is counter to the Church's teaching, definitely expressed in the Holy Office Letter, and the concept is not rejected by a single saint or theologian of any stature since the Council of Trent and its Catechism. 

    Putting aside all the ramblings and heretical extensions of the legitimate concept, the legitimate and just concept was nicely expressed by Orestes Brownson:


    Quote
    It is evident, both from Bellarmine and Billuart, that no one can be saved unless he belongs to the visible communion of the Church, either actually or virtually, and also that the salvation of catechumens can be asserted only because they do so belong ; that is, because they are in the vestibule, for the purpose of entering,  have already entered in their will and proximate disposition. St. Thomas teaches with regard to these, in case they have faith working by love, that all they lack is the reception of the visible sacrament in re ; but if they are prevented by death from receiving it in re before the Church is ready to administer it, that God supplies the defect, accepts the will for the deed, and reputes them to be baptized. If the defect is supplied, and God reputes them to be baptized, they are so in effect, have in effect received the visible sacrament, are truly members of the external communion of the Church, and therefore are saved in it, not out of it. *(footnote: * Summa 3, Q. G8, a. 2. corp. ad 2. et ad 3.)



    Bellarmine, Billuart, Perrone, &c, in speaking of persons as belonging to the soul and not to the body, mean, it is evident, not persons who in no sense belong to the body, but simply those who, though they in effect belong to it, do not belong to it in the full and strict sense of the word, because they have not received the visible sacrament in re. All they teach is simply that persons may be saved who have not received the visible sacrament in re ; but they by no means teach that persons can be saved without having received the visible sacrament at all. There is no difference between their view and ours, for we have never contended for any thing more than this ; only we think, that, in these times especially, when the tendency is to depreciate the external, it is more proper to speak of them as belonging in effect to the body, as they certainly do, than it is to speak of them simply as belonging to the soul; for the fact the most important to be insisted on is, not that it is possible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament in re, but that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament at least in voto et proximo, disposition.

    http://orestesbrownson.org/210.html





    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #142 on: March 23, 2023, 10:46:15 AM »
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  • Quote
    The Church has indicated that a BOD can avail to grace and righteousness, i.e. justification. And it has indicated that anyone who dies justified is saved. As I've said before, that's a simple concept that is Church teaching.
    A church teaching cannot be "indicated".  It has to be clearly taught, with apostolic authority and heretical penalties for unacceptance.  To date, no such thing exists.  Therefore, it's not a teaching but a 'pious belief' and/or 'theological theory'.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #143 on: March 23, 2023, 12:57:10 PM »
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  • False.  You laid out this fanciful narrative about temporal punishment due to sin not being remitted by BoD.  Since you made these assertions, you prove them.  I can't and don't have to prove a negative.

    Show me a single proof for your made-up narrative about temporal punishment due to sin not being forgiven by BoD.

    You won't find any because there isn't any.  This is completely made up out of thin air.

    Now, we do know that St. Alphonsus held this opinion, so my criticism of your post is at the same time a criticism of St. Alphonsus.  There is no proof that BoD does not remit temporal punishment due to sin.

    I'll find the video from the Dimonds on Trent.  As Our Lord taught, one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless one has been BORN AGAIN.  Rebirth means a complete regeneration (as Trent defines it also), including remission of all temporal punishment due to sin.  Trent makes that clear.  So if there's such a thing as BoD, it must be a rebirth or regenerations, and thus it must remit all temporal punishment due to sin.  This is yet another error made by St. Alphonsus on this matter.  I believe that St. Alphonsus was a bit too enamored of some Jesuits in his day, such as De Lugo, and even grants the latter's opinion regarding the possibility of salvation for infidels as "probable" (their word for "possible") ... though not holding it himself ... just because he had a high opinion of De Lugo.  But De Lugo's opinion was horrible and rejected 1500 years of teaching that explicit knowledge of Christ and the Holy Trinity are necessary for salvation.

    Now, this was before the infallibiilty of the OUM had been defined by Vatican I, but if a teaching that was unanimously held and taught by the Fathers, and by all Catholics, for 1500 years is not infallibly taught by the OUM, then there's no such thing as the infallibility of the OUM.  Nobody doubted this teaching for 1500 years until a Franciscan and a few Jesuits came along and complete made up "Rewarder God" theory out of thin air ... so they could get the newly-discovered Native Americans saved somehow.

    If it's not OK for us to reject BoD on the grounds that nearly all theologians have held it for the last 400 years, then why is it OK for these guys to come along and reject 1500 years of teaching to the contrary of their opinion?

    Also, the Holy Office upheld the teaching that knowledge of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation are necessary by necessity of means for salvation.

    To be clear: 

    You say, St. Alphonsus agrees with my statement that BoD does not remit temporal punishment for sin. But you said that my view was "heretical." Do you believe that St. Alphonsus taught heresy?

    And about the "made up out of thin air." Same with St. Alphonsus I guess? He made up his position "out of thin air?" 


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #144 on: March 23, 2023, 01:03:57 PM »
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  • If I believed in BoD, I would have to concur with Innocent III that it remits temporal punishment due to sin also.

    There can be no entry into the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again.  Rebirth clearly means regeneration (where the entire creature is renewed), and Trent taught that initial justification is a regeneration and then that regeneration entails complete remission of all sin and of all punishment due to sin.

    This made-up theory that BoD doesn't remit temporal punishment due to sin is highly problematic.

    This here is an extremely solid argument that I can find no fault with, except that it doesn't refute BoD per se, but does clearly refute the notion of BoD that holds temporal punishment is not remitted by it:
    [VATICAN CATHOLIC DOT COM]/man-must-regenerated-refutes-baptism-desire/

    So you use an "the letter of a Pope" as your authority. That's fine. Then, you reject the Pope's primary point (that BoD is part of Catholic Magisterium) as having no authority. But you accept the Pope's secondary point (that BoD sends the person directly to Heaven). You then use his secondary point, which is dependent on the primary point, to determine what is a heretical in what I said.

    Are you sure you don't want to reconsider your position?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #145 on: March 23, 2023, 01:26:46 PM »
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  • Quote
    So you use an "the letter of a Pope" as your authority. That's fine. Then, you reject the Pope's primary point (that BoD is part of Catholic Magisterium) as having no authority. But you accept the Pope's secondary point (that BoD sends the person directly to Heaven). You then use his secondary point, which is dependent on the primary point, to determine what is a heretical in what I said.
    :confused:  His point is, isn't a Pope's magisterium greater than St Alphonsus' opinion?  Yes.  So, if one is a BOD'er, then to contradict the Pope would be heresy.

    You say that purgatory is required of BOD.  The pope says no.  Ergo, in the BOD world, you are a heretic.  


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #146 on: March 23, 2023, 01:31:27 PM »
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  • These two passages from Trent cited by the Dimond Brothers completely destroy the notion that there can be [initial] justification without remission of all punishment due to sin:

    Simple syllogism.  Initial Justification (vs. justification of the fallen in Confession) requires being born again.  Being born again means that there is nothing in someone that God hates so much so that "nothing may delay them from entry into heaven" (echoing Innocent III here)
    Those "two passages from Trent" that you quote from Session 6, Chapter 3 are further qualified in Chapter 4 directly below that, where Trent discusses the "bath of regeneration or the desire for it."

    Trent says the "this transition from the state in which man is born a son of the first Adam to the state of grace and adoption as sons of God through the second Adam" cannot take place without EITHER the "bath of regeneration or the desire for it." The "bath" is water baptism. The "desire for it" is BoD. Both of these methods result, according to Trent in "this transition from the state in which man is born a son of the first Adam to the state of grace and adoption as sons of God through the second Adam." In other words, the person is in "a state of grace" rather than a "state of mortal sin." 

    Now, we use those two states all the time in normal conversation as Catholics. After I go to confession and confess my sins, I am in "a state of grace" but I may very well, at the same time, have the debt for those forgiven sins that I must pay off through penance. So, the language of Trent actually supports the view of St. Alphonsus (which is my own view) that you claim is made up "out of thin air."

    Are you sure you want to keep going with this?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #147 on: March 23, 2023, 01:38:22 PM »
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  • Angelus, are you actually arguing that the "state of grace" post-baptism is the same as post-confession?  :facepalm:

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #148 on: March 23, 2023, 01:41:30 PM »
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  • :confused:  His point is, isn't a Pope's magisterium greater than St Alphonsus' opinion?  Yes.  So, if one is a BOD'er, then to contradict the Pope would be heresy.

    You say that purgatory is required of BOD.  The pope says no.  Ergo, in the BOD world, you are a heretic. 

    But I thought you and Ladislaus said that BoD ITSELF was heresy, no? If that is the case, then you and Ladislaus must be saying that Pope Innocent is "a heretic."

    Please tell me how you are not saying that. Please just focus on BoD itself in the statement of Pope Innocent, which you and Ladislaus claim is a statement of such Magisterial authority that anyone disagreeing with ANYTHING in it would become, in your words, "a heretic."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #149 on: March 23, 2023, 01:44:35 PM »
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  • Angelus, do you not understand hypothetical examples?