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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64718 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2023, 10:26:28 PM »

Quote
Until you provide evidence for your claims,
Plenty of evidence on this site.  Do a good search and you'll find plenty.  Or just start with Trent and read the whole council.  It's not that long.  It'll do you some good.

Online Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #126 on: March 23, 2023, 04:28:27 AM »
I don’t believe you would actually say that the great saints and theologians that taught BOD were incompetent, but consider that the criteria you gave for those who are the actual incompetent dimwits necessarily includes them. 

Though, again, it’s not just teaching BOD that would make Bellarmine, Liguori, Suarez, Cornelius a Lapide, et al., incompetent if they were wrong; it’s that they understood Trent’s decree on justification to be teaching BOD.  If this decree clearly does not teach BOD, as some modern lay people assert, then Bellarmine, Liguori, et al. grossly misunderstood something that should be clearly understood.  That means they were either incompetent or malicious

Or, it means Trent's decree on justification does not clearly teach something other than BOD, and that conciliar decrees can be misunderstood, even by the most competent and holiest theologians.
You miss the point completely.
The point is - there IS a contradiction between a BOD and all the other Church teachings and Scripture.

As you demonstrate above, all BODers completely and totally ignore this contradiction as if it does not exist.


Trent's decree on justification is quite clear that justification "cannot be effected without the sacrament


or the desire for the sacrament."


BODers say justification is absolutely certain with a desire for the sacrament - as if this is what Trent teaches.



Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2023, 07:21:04 AM »
 One of the Popes who opined in favor of BoD stated that "such a one" would enter Heaven "without delay".  In fact, that statement was made in a letter that was very similar to the one that St. Alphonsus said made BoD de fide.  If that's the case, then this position of non-remission of temporal punishment, is also heretical.  This is a mess.

What letter and pope was that?

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2023, 07:38:40 AM »
He wasn't writing about the Catechism.  He was writing IN his catechism about Trent itself.  He cited Trent that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for adults and then made two citations in the footnote, and both the passages were explicit statements from the Church Fathers that even good catechumens who died without the Sacrament of Baptism cannot be saved.

10:45 - 12:00


I didn't say St. Peter Canisius was writing about the Catechism. Read better. 

He cited Trent in Session VI, Chapter 4 in support of the necessity of baptism for adults and children. Session VI, Chapter IV says that there can't be justification without the water or the desire for it. Now most who are against BOD interpret Session VI, Chapter 4 as saying that both the water and the desire are required. But children can't desire baptism; the water alone suffices. Why wouldn't children be incapable of justification if no one can be justified without the water and the desire?

I say again, St. Peter Canisius's Catechism only says that baptism is necessary for salvation, and so do St. Aphonsus, St. Robert Bellarmine, and everyone else of any authority. Most of them also believe in BOD. Most of them also cite or recognize Session VI, Chapter 4 as indicating the necessity of baptism. So the Canisius's quote "proves" nothing. It's a slim argument with a lot of inference, supposition, etc. It's an argument from a failure to mention BOD (no stated objection), and not particularly compelling, particularly in the context of the explicit statements of fellow saints, some of them contemporary - e.g. St. Robert Bellarnime, explicitly allowing for BOD. 

 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #129 on: March 23, 2023, 07:45:06 AM »
What letter and pope was that?

It was this letter here, usually cited as evidence in favor of BoD:
Quote
Pope Innocent III, to the Bishop of Metz, Aug. 28, 1206: “We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when he says to the Apostles: ‘Go, baptize all nations in the name etc.,” the Jєω mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another...If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith.”

There's a good discusson of this letter at ...
[VATICAN  CATHOLIC DOT COM]/pope-innocent-iii-baptism-of-desire/