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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64733 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2023, 04:45:28 PM »
Then Rheims contradicts himself and Trent by this statement, which is totally false.  God has, and does, bind his graces to sacraments.

Yes, this "not binding" thing is utter nonsense and is a favorite tactic of the BoDers.  Sure.  God CAN do anything.  He can come down from Heaven and make someone a priest without Holy Orders and confer the character on Him.  Has God ever done that?  God COULD just destroy Hell and put all those souls onto some earthly paradise.  Nobody's disputing what God COULD do.  It's about what God has 1) willed to do and to establish and 2) what He has revealed to us about His will (though the Deposit of Revelation).

At the same time, though, out of the other side of their mouths, claiming that anti-BoDers "bind" God with the Sacraments, they'll claim that somehow God is bound by necessity or impossibility to provide BoD ... as if God were incapable of overcoming all such necessities or impossibilities without the slightest bit of exertion on His part.  Pay no attention to the many cases where God (through His saints) raised people back to life just to have them baptized or miraculously either kept them alive or provided water. 

There's the case of St. Peter Claver who a woman named "Augustina" (ironic that she's named after St. Augustine) back to life in order to baptize her:
Quote
"The affair of the slave Augustina, who served in the house of Captain Vincente de Villalobos, was one of the strangest in the life of Claver...When Augustina was in her last agony Villalobos went in search of Claver. When the latter arrived the body was already being prepared for the shroud and he found it cold to the touch. His expression suddenly changed and he amazed everyone by crying aloud, "Augustina, Augustina." He sprinkled her with holy water, he knelt by her, and prayed for an hour. Suddenly the supposedly dead woman began to move...All fell on their knees. Augustina stared at Claver, and as if awakening from a deep sleep said, "Jesus, Jesus, how tired I am!" Claver told her to pray with all her heart and repent her sins, but those standing by, moved by curiosity, begged him to ask her where she came from. He did so, and she said these words: "I am come from journeying along a long road. It was a beautiful road, and after I had gone a long way down it I met a white man of great beauty who stood before me and said, 'Stop, you cannot go further.' I asked him what I should do, and he replied, 'Go back the way you have come, to the house you have left.' This I have done, but I cannot tell how." On hearing this Claver told them all to leave the room and leave him alone with her because he wished to hear her confession. He prepared her and told her that complete confession of her sins was of immense importance if she wanted to enter that paradise of which she had had a glimpse. She obeyed him, and as he heard her confession it became clear to Claver that she was not baptized. He straightway ordered water to be brought, and a candle and a crucifix. Her owners answered that they had had Augustina in their house for twenty years and that she behaved in all things like themselves. She had gone to confession, to Mass, and performed all her Christian duties, and therefore she did not need Baptism, nor could she receive it. But Claver was certain that they were wrong and insisted, baptizing her in the presence of all, to the great delight of her soul and his, for a few minutes after she had received the sacraments she died in the presence of the whole family."

-- Peter Claver: Saint of the Slaves, Fr. Angel Valltiera, S.J., Burns and Oates, London, 1960, pp. 221,222.

In this story, Augustina relates that she was not permitted to enter Heaven, despite the fact that she had lived as a devout Catholic, going to Confession, to Mass, etc.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2023, 04:51:44 PM »
Yes, and the key difference is the following:

Water Baptism = The Sacrament of Baptism = Salvation (when one perseveres in state of justification until death)
vs.
BOD = extra-Sacramental repentance/cleansing = Justification (when one perseveres in that state until death)

The Sacrament of Baptism provides forgiveness of ALL past sins AS WELL AS the remission of ALL TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT for those sins.

BOD provides forgiveness of all past sins, but DOES NOT provide remission of temporal punishment for those sins.

So, a person receiving the Sacrament of Baptism and not committing another sin before his death, goes straight to Heaven. A person "receiving" BOD and not committing another sin before his death, goes, at best, to Purgatory because he still has to pay off his debt for his sins committed prior to "receiving" BOD. Both people, ultimately, make it to Heaven. But one just takes the detour to Purgatory first.

Therefore, "salvation" means complete avoidance of any kind of Purgatory (salvation from the fires of Hell). It is only possible for a Catholic with the assistance of the Sacraments to have the hope that they can avoid Purgatory.

Justification means the state of righteousness (potentially just momentary) that, if persevered in until death, will be good enough to get a person at least into Purgatory but never straight to Heaven.

An unjustified person goes to Hell.

Said another way:

Saved (Sacramentally-cleansed, state of grace, and no temporal debt) = Heaven-bound
Merely Justified (state of grace but temporal debt still remaining) = Purgatory-bound
Unjustified (state of mortal sin) = Hell-bound

Nearly every line of this post is completely made up out of thin air, this notion that BoD does not provide remission of temporal punishment due to sin.  Why not?  Just because you guys made this up?  It's fabricated out of thin air.

You have a couple of real problems there.  Trent defined initial justification as a rebirth or regeneration, and rebirth / regeneration (as the name indicates) entails the complete remission of all sin and all punishment due to sin.  One of the Popes who opined in favor of BoD stated that "such a one" would enter Heaven "without delay".  In fact, that statement was made in a letter that was very similar to the one that St. Alphonsus said made BoD de fide.  If that's the case, then this position of non-remission of temporal punishment, is also heretical.  This is a mess.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2023, 04:53:01 PM »
Therefore, "salvation" means complete avoidance of any kind of Purgatory (salvation from the fires of Hell).

No.

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2023, 04:55:05 PM »
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean, but in your argument you were making the assertion that if one did not agree with St. Alphonsus' interpretation of Trent (but that of St. Peter Canisius, who was actually at the Council and spoke at it), this means that (we hold that) St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus were "incompetent dimwits".  That's a strawman in your attribution of this to us, and idiotic in that you make this absurd false dichotomy where if you're not 100% correct about everything, that must mean you're an "incompetent dimwit".

That's as dishonest as it is idiotic.
As I said, I was thinking of those who say Trent's decree on justification is so clear it can't be misunderstood.  If that's true, then that makes anyone who misunderstands it an incompetent dimwit or malicious.  It's my fault for not stating that, but a charitable reply from you would have been to point out that those aren't the only two explanations, and that conciliar decrees can be misunderstood by even the greatest theologians.  Or you could have offered Pax's explanation that some things on doctrine published by a council are guaranteed from being misunderstood, and Session 6 Chapter 4 doesn't fall into that category.  Instead of addressing the intellect, you attacked the will, immediately calling me dishonest.  I obviously don't post here often, but I occasionally spend time reading the discussions, and I've noticed you consistently attribute ill will to those who write something you disagree with.

Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2023, 05:01:56 PM »
Nearly every line of this post is completely made up out of thin air, this notion that BoD does not provide remission of temporal punishment due to sin.  Why not?  Just because you guys made this up?  It's fabricated out of thin air.

You have a couple of real problems there.  Trent defined initial justification as a rebirth or regeneration, and rebirth / regeneration (as the name indicates) entails the complete remission of all sin and all punishment due to sin.  One of the Popes who opined in favor of BoD stated that "such a one" would enter Heaven "without delay".  In fact, that statement was made in a letter that was very similar to the one that St. Alphonsus said made BoD de fide.  If that's the case, then this position of non-remission of temporal punishment, is also heretical.  This is a mess.

Until you provide evidence for your claims, I guess one could say that your claims are also "fabricated out of thin air."

1. Show us where it says that "justification...entails the complete remission of all temporal punishment for sin" in Trent.

2. Show us where "one of the Popes" stated exactly what you claim.

3. Show us where it is "heretical" to say that BOD could require expiation of temporal debt in Purgatory.

Otherwise, someone might say that you just "made this up" and say of your comments: "this is a mess."