Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64872 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #100 on:** March 22, 2023, 01:36:40 PM »

Here's the logic from Trent:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Major 1: Water is necessary for baptism (doctrine)
Major 2: Baptism is necessary for salvation (doctrine)
Minor 1: BOD is not a sacrament, nor does it replace water baptism (fact)
Minor 2: Trent mentions "desire" in the section on justification.
Conclusion 1: BOD can provide justification but not salvation, because it's not a sacrament.
Conclusion 2: What happens to those who die justified but pre-baptism? Trent does not say. Many saints have theories. We don't know. It's not been defined.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #101 on:** March 22, 2023, 02:18:10 PM »

Quote from: In Principio on March 22, 2023, 11:36:12 AM

Moreso, one would necessarily have to conclude that Bellarmine, Liguori, Suarez, and other theologians and authorized Catholic writers after Trent were not just wrong, but were incompetent dimwits who completely misunderstood what the council meant in it’s decree on justification, misleading the whole Church for centuries into thinking the council taught BOD, without their interpretation of Trent’s decree ever being corrected or disputed, and without any alternate understanding being proposed by anyone authorized to write on it.

Dishonest and idiotic strawman. Theologians can be wrong about something without having been "incompetent dimwits".

St. Peter Canisius, a theologian who attended and spoke at the Council of Trent, published a Catechism afterwards that received broad approbation interpreted Trent as ruling out salvation for catechumens.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #102 on:** March 22, 2023, 02:21:14 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 22, 2023, 01:36:40 PM

Major 1: Water is necessary for baptism (doctrine)
Major 2: Baptism is necessary for salvation (doctrine)

Here's where those who theorize about BoD say that the opinion is compatible with Trent. They hold that even in BoD the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism is maintained when it can be received in votum. I disagree with this speculation, but for this reason I also hold that BoD is not heretical.

In Principio · « **Reply #103 on:** March 22, 2023, 02:44:04 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on March 22, 2023, 11:56:17 AM

The actual incompetent dimwits are the ones who insist that there is no contradiction whatsoever between the clear words of Our Lord Himself which have also been infallibly defined (which we are bound to believe), and the opinions of anyone/everyone else.

I don’t believe you would actually say that the great saints and theologians that taught BOD were incompetent, but consider that the criteria you gave for those who are the actual incompetent dimwits necessarily includes them.

Though, again, it’s not just teaching BOD that would make Bellarmine, Liguori, Suarez, Cornelius a Lapide, et al., incompetent if they were wrong; it’s that they understood Trent’s decree on justification to be teaching BOD. If this decree clearly does not teach BOD, as some modern lay people assert, then Bellarmine, Liguori, et al. grossly misunderstood something that should be clearly understood. That means they were either incompetent or malicious

Or, it means Trent's decree on justification does not clearly teach something other than BOD, and that conciliar decrees can be misunderstood, even by the most competent and holiest theologians.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #104 on:** March 22, 2023, 02:45:59 PM »

Yeah, I don't think BOD for catechumens is heretical (but it is if you apply it to pagans, muslims, joos, etc). As long as you say that BOD can ONLY provide justification.

The error/quasi-heresy is when you assume that ALL who die justified get to heaven. Trent doesn't say this, but it's incorrectly assumed/inferred.

In fact, Trent says the complete opposite - that "real and natural water" is necessary for the sacrament. Thus, BOD isn't a "type" of baptism at all; it's a type of justification. So the proper term isn't BOD but Justification-by/of-desire - JOD.

Trent totally anathematizes the protestant heresies of the 1500s - i.e. "salvation by faith" or "faith alone" etc. Logically, Trent would also not allow baptism by "faith alone". Conversion/Contrition/Desire can provide justification, but this is a lower step than the actual sacrament, thus the reward (i.e. heaven) is not attainable.

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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64872 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Ladislaus

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Ladislaus

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

In Principio

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Pax Vobis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire