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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41243 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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  • Sense is that the proper dispositions would avail, prevail over any obstacle that would prevent their reception of the Sacrament.  There's no mention of death in the Catechism whatsoever and no indication that if a person died without having received the Sacrament, they could still be saved.  This is read into it by those who want to believe in BoD.  Here you're trying to read the expression from Rheims about departing this life into the text of the Roman Catechism, and that's completely dishonest, as it's not in the Roman Catechism.

    Rheims' statement that God has not bound his grace to any Sacrament is utter nonsense, but that's a side issue.

    Completely dishonest? :facepalm:

    Well, you're well-known for ascribing the moral fault of dishonesty to other members, so at least I'm in good company.


    But where do you get off? Especially when you're reading into the text yourself, big time. I honestly think the Rheim's annotation is closer to the Catechism, and your reading makes no sense: there's a real "danger" to be concerned about in someone dying while waiting for baptism than in the baptism being called off and having to be scheduled later because of a church fire or a winter storm or whatever  . . . don't ya think?

    Hey, since your reading is much less reasonable than mine, I guess you're, what, completely completely dishonest?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • There isn't any.  That's the entire point.  And there's no mention of deprivation of Baptism in the Catechism either.  

    Here's PV's translation:


    Quote
    "With regard adults who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, for instance, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out a different manner of proceeding... On this class of persons, however, the Church does not confer this sacrament hastily: She will have it deferred for a certain time; nor is the delay attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned: and should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptismtheir intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." (p124,125 of the text)

    Says, "deprived." Bad translation?

    Some other translations make it worse for you, much worse:


    Quote
    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml




    "Impossible" to be baptized. That translation blows to smithereenyour St. Fulgentius interpration, doesn't it?

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Online Stubborn

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  • Here's PV's translation:

    Quote
    "With regard adults who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, for instance, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out a different manner of proceeding... On this class of persons, however, the Church does not confer this sacrament hastily: She will have it deferred for a certain time; nor is the delay attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned: and should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptismtheir intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." (p124,125 of the text)
    If in your life you had never heard of such a thing as a BOD, there is no possible way you would ever get it out of the above quote, no way. The same cannot be said for John 3:5.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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  • Says, "deprived." Bad translation?

    Not the word "deprived" but the sense of the subjunctive mood is lost.  "Accident" is incorrect in that it implies a serious accident / death.

    Online Ladislaus

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  • "Impossible" to be baptized. That translation blows to smithereens your St. Fulgentius interpration, doesn't it?

    It does nothing of the sort.  "Impossible" is even a worse translation.  In this regard, the first was better.  If you have a copy of the Latin (which I no longer have), I'll be happy to walk you through it.


    Online Ladislaus

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  • Completely dishonest? :facepalm:

    Well, you're well-known for ascribing the moral fault of dishonesty to other members, so at least I'm in good company.


    But where do you get off? Especially when you're reading into the text yourself, big time. I honestly think the Rheim's annotation is closer to the Catechism, and your reading makes no sense: there's a real "danger" to be concerned about in someone dying while waiting for baptism than in the baptism being called off and having to be scheduled later because of a church fire or a winter storm or whatever  . . . don't ya think?

    Hey, since your reading is much less reasonable than mine, I guess you're, what, completely completely dishonest?


    Yes, dishonest.  You've made up your mind beforehand what outcome you would like to see.  Rheims has nothing to do with the Catechism but is expressing its own viewpoint.  Your attempting to read Rheims into the Catechism is in fact dishonest.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Yes, dishonest.  You've made up your mind beforehand what outcome you would like to see.  Rheims has nothing to do with the Catechism but is expressing its own viewpoint.  Your attempting to read Rheims into the Catechism is in fact dishonest.

    I could just as easily say that St. Fulgentius has nothing to do with the Catechism and your reading into it. And I could say your insertion is "dishonest" as you have a anti-BOD agenda. As for me, no, I have no animus against Feeneyites or the Feeneyite position, having been a vigorous advocate of it.

    But facts and truth don't really matter to you: what matters to you is whatever handle or tool you can grab as a lever in an argument (the erection of straw men, the questioning of the integrity of those you argue with, the branding of them as heretics, etc.), truth be damned. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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  • I could just as easily say that St. Fulgentius has nothing to do with the Catechism and your reading into it. 

    I cited this as an example of a possible reading, and drew the conclusion that Trent was silent about HOW these dispositions would avail.  I never said that this IS the meaning, but said that it's a possible meaning, and that you can't conclude from the Catechism that this means someone who died without the Sacrament could be saved, as the Catechism remains silent about how this would be accomplished.  Unlike yourself, I am not going any farther than the evidence takes us.


    Online Ladislaus

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  • I found the Latin finally:
    Quote
    ... Baptismi suscipiendi propositum, atque consilium, et male actae vitae poenitentia satis futura sit ad gratiam, et iustitiam, si repentinus aliquis casus impediat, quo minus salutari aqua ablui possint.

    ... with the key passage being "si repentinus aliquis casus impediat, quo minus salutari aqua ablui possint".

    si = if
    repentinus = unexpected / sudden
    aliquis = some
    casus = incident, occurence, event, generally with a negative connotation of being a bad event or a mishap

    So to translate "casus" as "accident" is completely wrong.  In English this implies some near-fatal or potential fatal incident, where there's nothing of the sort necessarily there in the Latin.

    impediat = impede, get in the way of, become a hindrance to ... subjunctive mode, indicating a hypothetial possibility
    https://classics.osu.edu/Undergraduate-Studies/Latin-Program/Grammar/mood/Conditions/conditions-latin
    Quote
    The Subjunctive Mood used in conditions is a special usage of the potential subjunctive. The potential subjunctive presents a state or an act, not as fact, but as existing in the realm of possibility.

    "quo minus" = from / lest (often following forms of impedio)
    salutari = saving
    aqua = water
    ablui = to be washed off or cleansed

    si (if) followed by a negative construct such as "quo minus" has a similar sense as the Latin "ne", meaning lest.

    si + subjunctive + quo minus together could easily have the sense of "lest something prevent them from being able to be washed by the saving water".

    All this passage is saying is that the proper dispositions of an adult would suffice (with God) to overcome any obstacle that might get in the way of their being washed by the saving water.

    It's silent about HOW, whether this means keeping them alive until their Baptism (as St. Fulgentius held) or by a Baptism of desire.  It could be either one, but Trent doesn't go into it, as the point is merely that it's OK to defer Baptism for adults because if they have the proper dispositions, they will not die and go to Hell ... whether this means that the not die (non-BoD reading), or whether it means that if they die they won't go to Hell (BoD reading).

    This text is inconclusive at best.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • I cited this as an example of a possible reading, and drew the conclusion that Trent was silent about HOW these dispositions would avail.  I never said that this IS the meaning, but said that it's a possible meaning, and that you can't conclude from the Catechism that this means someone who died without the Sacrament could be saved, as the Catechism remains silent about how this would be accomplished.  Unlike yourself, I am not going any farther than the evidence takes us.

    You're constantly shifting accusations, charges, etc. trying to save face and win arguments. It's pathetic.

    I never said the BOD meaning is the meaning either. I said that the Catechism "seems much closer" in meaning to the Rheims annotation, with its BOD reading. I originally asked you to post the Fulgentius quote and said it would be nice to see them all, the St. F quote, the Rheims annotation, and the Catechism quote lined up together to compare them . . . that how "dishonest" I am. :jester::fryingpan:

    I will add that the BOD reading does have going for it that about every single saint, Catholic Bible annotation, and catechism that discussed the issue post-Trent coming down for BOD.

     As with Trent, so with the Catechism of Trent: do you know of any, any theologian or pope/bishop post-Trent who reads the Catechism your or the non-BOD way?

    But hey, Laddie knows best.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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  • You're constantly shifting accusations, charges, etc. trying to save face and win arguments. It's pathetic.

    More nonsense and misdirection.  You falsely accused me of reading the St. Fulgentius interpretation into Trent, when I did no such thing.  I merely stated that it's a possible reading of it (vs. the BoD reading) and that ultimately the Catechism is silent on the matter.  You're the one who keeps insisting that it must be read the "Rheims" way.


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • You falsely accused me of reading the St. Fulgentius interpretation into Trent, when I did no such thing. 
     
    :jester::jester::jester:

    Why don’t you quote me making such an “accusation”? Instead of just throwing more of your deceptive rhetorical cover.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • It's silent about HOW, whether this means keeping them alive until their Baptism 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Per the title of this thread...Trent does not "teach" BOD.  Very true. 

    It mentions "desire of baptism" but it doesn't teach or explain what that is, who qualifies, how it must be believed, etc.

    Every other doctrine defined by an ecuмenical council CLEARLY and UNMISTAKENLY explains those doctrines in detail, with much explanation and theological thoughts.  BOD isn't at all in the same category as defined doctrines for this simple reason alone.

    A doctrine defined by a council should stand on its own.  One should be able to read the council docuмents ALONE and understand what the teaching is.  The simple fact is that no one can do this.  Everyone who tries to explain BOD cannot use Trent, except to say it mentions "desire".  To explain BOD, one has to give countless #s of quotes from saints and stories from history.  St Thomas and St Augustine are more explanatory than Trent BY FAR.

    When one cannot use a council to explain a supposed doctrine, then that's a sign it was never defined.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • Per the title of this thread...Trent does not "teach" BOD.  Very true. 
    No, the title of this thread is false. It states that the CATECHISM of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire.

    The Catechism clearly states that if adults are prevented by some obstacle from receiving the sacrament of baptism, their intention of receiving it and their repentance from past sins will avail them unto grace and justification.