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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64724 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2023, 03:46:58 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 20, 2023, 12:36:03 PM
Sense is that the proper dispositions would avail, prevail over any obstacle that would prevent their reception of the Sacrament.  There's no mention of death in the Catechism whatsoever and no indication that if a person died without having received the Sacrament, they could still be saved.  This is read into it by those who want to believe in BoD.  Here you're trying to read the expression from Rheims about departing this life into the text of the Roman Catechism, and that's completely dishonest, as it's not in the Roman Catechism.

Rheims' statement that God has not bound his grace to any Sacrament is utter nonsense, but that's a side issue.

Completely dishonest? :facepalm:

Well, you're well-known for ascribing the moral fault of dishonesty to other members, so at least I'm in good company.

But where do you get off? Especially when you're reading into the text yourself, big time. I honestly think the Rheim's annotation is closer to the Catechism, and your reading makes no sense: there's a real "danger" to be concerned about in someone dying while waiting for baptism than in the baptism being called off and having to be scheduled later because of a church fire or a winter storm or whatever  . . . don't ya think?

Hey, since your reading is much less reasonable than mine, I guess you're, what, completely completely dishonest?
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2023, 03:58:33 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 20, 2023, 12:33:39 PM

There isn't any.  That's the entire point.  And there's no mention of deprivation of Baptism in the Catechism either.  

Here's PV's translation:


Quote
"With regard adults who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, for instance, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out a different manner of proceeding... On this class of persons, however, the Church does not confer this sacrament hastily: She will have it deferred for a certain time; nor is the delay attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned: and should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptism, their intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." (p124,125 of the text)

Says, "deprived." Bad translation?

Some other translations make it worse for you, much worse:


Quote
On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml




"Impossible" to be baptized. That translation blows to smithereens your St. Fulgentius interpration, doesn't it?

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2023, 04:36:22 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on March 20, 2023, 03:58:33 PM
Here's PV's translation:

Quote
"With regard adults who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, for instance, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out a different manner of proceeding... On this class of persons, however, the Church does not confer this sacrament hastily: She will have it deferred for a certain time; nor is the delay attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned: and should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptism, their intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." (p124,125 of the text)
If in your life you had never heard of such a thing as a BOD, there is no possible way you would ever get it out of the above quote, no way. The same cannot be said for John 3:5.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2023, 06:18:58 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on March 20, 2023, 03:58:33 PM

Says, "deprived." Bad translation?

Not the word "deprived" but the sense of the subjunctive mood is lost.  "Accident" is incorrect in that it implies a serious accident / death.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2023, 06:19:49 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on March 20, 2023, 03:58:33 PM
"Impossible" to be baptized. That translation blows to smithereens your St. Fulgentius interpration, doesn't it?

It does nothing of the sort.  "Impossible" is even a worse translation.  In this regard, the first was better.  If you have a copy of the Latin (which I no longer have), I'll be happy to walk you through it.
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