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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64724 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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I don't know already, it's the same arguments repeated over and over.

It simply boils down to....
There are those of us who accept the defined doctrines, Scripture, and all the other teachings from the highest authorities in the Church (and everything associated with those teachings that we must believe), and therefore cannot in good conscience accept a BOD because a BOD contradicts all those things regardless of the lesser authorities (great saints, catechisms etc.) who taught otherwise.

And there are those who believe defined doctrines, John 3:5 etc., but are convinced that all those teachings have exceptions built into them somehow, which apparently, is why they not only see no contradiction whatsoever, instead they're convinced a BOD is a doctrine of the Church. 

Well, there are many flavors in between.  Some (very few) people believe in the BoD speculation as referring to catechumens who intend to receive Baptism but die first, all the way to the other end of the spectrum where "BoD" means that every nice guy who sort-of implicitly wants to do good can be saved by it.

Offline Stubborn

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Well, there are many flavors in between.  Some (very few) people believe in the BoD speculation as referring to catechumens who intend to receive Baptism but die first, all the way to the other end of the spectrum where "BoD" means that every nice guy who sort-of implicitly wants to do good can be saved by it.
Yes, there are of course many different flavors, which is why I always refer to the idea as "a" BOD. I always figure that covers all flavors lol


Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
How?  According to St. Fulgentius, it's because God would keep them alive until they could receive the Sacrament on account of these dispositions.

Huh? Where's the "deprivation" of baptism in such a case? If they ultimately receive baptism, they're not "deprived" of baptism. And for adults, there's a delay during catechesis even without "any unforeseen accident." So there would be no need to even mention any "unforeseen accident": all the Catechism would need say is, "no danger in or of delay," period. You could remove the "unforeseen accident"; it's utterly gratuitous in your scenario.

The Catechism says:


Quote

With regard adults who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, for instance, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out a different manner of proceeding... On this class of persons, however, the Church does not confer this sacrament hastily: She will have it deferred for a certain time; nor is the delay attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned: and should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptism, their intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." (p124,125 of the text)
 


As I mentioned before, the Catechism seems to be referring to a situation similar to that expressed in the original Rheims annotation to John 3:16:


Quote
5. Born again of Water.] As no man can enter into this world nor have his life and being in the same, except he be born of his carnal parents: no more can a man enter into the life and state of grace which is in Christ, or attain to life everlasting, unless he be born and baptized of water and the Holy Ghost. Whereby we see first, this Sacrament to be called our regeneration or second birth, in respect of our natural and carnal which was before. Secondly, that this sacrament consisteth of an external element of water, and internal virtue of the Holy Spirit: Wherein it excelleth John's baptism, which had the external element, but not the spiritual grace. Thirdly, that no man can enter into the Kingdom of God, nor into the fellowship of Holy Church, without it.

Whereby the *Pelagians, and Calvinists be condemned, that promise life everlasting to young children that die without baptism, and all other that think only their faith to serve, or the external element of water superfluous or not necessary: our Saviour's words being plain and general. Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remediless necessity could not obtain it. Lastly, it is proved that this Sacrament giveth grace ex opere operator, that is, of the work itself (which all Protestants deny) because it so breedeth our spiritual life in God, as our carnal birth giveth the life of the world.

The "unforeseen accident depriv(ation)" of the Catechism seems much closer to the contemporaneous Rheim 's description where the catechumen "depart(s) this life with vow and desire to have the Sacrament."



Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Huh? Where's the "deprivation" of baptism in such a case?

There isn't any.  That's the entire point.  And there's no mention of deprivation of Baptism in the Catechism either.  This expression of the intention to receive the Sacrament "availing" for St. Fulgentius referred to the confession availing in the sense that God would keep him alive until the Sacrament.  And there's nothing different there in the Catechism either.

That expression "should any unforseen accident deprive adults of baptism" is a gross mistranslation, whereas the sense is really, "if there were to arise any circuмstance that might deprive adults of Baptism".  All this passage says is that God's grace, in response to their good dispositions, would see them through these obstacles to grace and righteousness.  It's entirely silent on how, and could just as easily be completed by the thought of St. Fulgentius, where God would keep him in this life until he could receive the Sacrament.  This is subjunctive mood, which means not that they have been deprived but that the might (otherwise) be deprived.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
As I mentioned before, the Catechism seems to be referring to a situation similar to that expressed in the original Rheims annotation to John 3:16:

The "unforeseen accident depriv(ation)" of the Catechism seems much closer to the contemporaneous Rheim 's description where the catechumen "depart(s) this life with vow and desire to have the Sacrament."

Sense is that the proper dispositions would avail, prevail over any obstacle that would prevent their reception of the Sacrament.  There's no mention of death in the Catechism whatsoever and no indication that if a person died without having received the Sacrament, they could still be saved.  This is read into it by those who want to believe in BoD.  Here you're trying to read the expression from Rheims about departing this life into the text of the Roman Catechism, and that's completely dishonest, as it's not in the Roman Catechism.

Rheims' statement that God has not bound his grace to any Sacrament is utter nonsense, but that's a side issue.