Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 66124 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

This is both stupid and at the same time a slanderous straw man, attributing the opinion that anyone "definitively exclude(s) the possibility of their conversion" to anyone here.  Absolutely NO ONE does this, nor did the poster to whom you were responding here.

What is this emotional drivel that you're trying to pass off as theology?

Entire point of the teaching from Pope Gregory XVI on that other related thread is that while this is possible, unless the distinctions are explicitly made, the general act of "praying for" a departed heretic undermines the Church dogma regarding EENS.  It's incredibly unlikely, and St. Alphonsus said that the chances were miniscule, for someone who lived either outside the Church or in sin their entire lives, to experience a last moment conversion, since that's not how God's Providence normally works.  But no one holds that it's not theoretically possible for this to have happened and definitively excludes the possibility.

Church presumes them lost, and in the external forum treats them as lost.  If we die and go to heaven, and happen to find that such a one was saved in their last moments, then glory to God.  But to try to spin this as if it's something likely or common, or to indiscriminately, without making all these distinctions, claim to be praying for them, is to express the sentiment that there is good hope of their salvation, even if they did not convert to the Catholic faith in their last moments.

There was a decree of the Holy Office under Pope St. Pius X, in response to a question about whether Catholics could say it was possible for Confucius to have been saved, and answer was that Catholics must respond that he was damned, as all infidels are damned.

Bottom line is that the people who speak this way, as you do, don't REALLY believe that there's no salvation outside the Church.  You pay lip service to the dogma because you have to ... after all, it's a dogma.  But that's as far as your belief in it goes.
Just more rash judgements, misrepresentation, and personal attacks

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter

If St Thomas knows nothing of BOD or BOB in his "Catechetical Instruction", he clearly teaches it in the Summa, did you not read my earlier post?

No, I do not hold that someone can have BOD without faith. But I do hold as absolutely certain that God desires every man to be saved, and that he gives every man the grace to save his soul. The conclusion is obvious. God is not limited by the ordinary means He established for salvation, He sees the heart, and the Almighty acts directly on souls. Faith usually comes by hearing, yes, that is the ordinary way, but with some, it is clearly impossible. Were they then created for damnation? Just a simple yes or no will do.

PV,

St. Thomas believed that saving faith required belief in the Trinity and In
carnation: i.e., no salvation without the lowest common denominator of the requisite Catholic faith. Do you agree with him in that regard as well?

DR


Offline TheRealMcCoy

  • Supporter
If there a specific doctrine that states that unconverted Protestants/occultists/joos/musloids/pagans MIGHT be saved at the moment of death even if there was not a single act of conversion made in their life?  

Offline Vanguard

  • Supporter
Faith is a gift from God. I think we need to ask for it. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be open to you. I think if people want the true Faith, God will provide it. I feel bad for people that are not Catholic. I pray for their conversion. 

The Theological Virtues of faith, hope, and charity (love) are those virtues that relate directly to God. These are not acquired through human effort but, beginning with Baptism, they are infused within us as gifts from God.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
If St Thomas knows nothing of BOD or BOB in his "Catechetical Instruction", he clearly teaches it in the Summa, did you not read my earlier post?

No, I do not hold that someone can have BOD without faith. But I do hold as absolutely certain that God desires every man to be saved, and that he gives every man the grace to save his soul. The conclusion is obvious. God is not limited by the ordinary means He established for salvation, He sees the heart, and the Almighty acts directly on souls. Faith usually comes by hearing, yes, that is the ordinary way, but with some, it is clearly impossible. Were they then created for damnation? Just a simple yes or no will do.
God wills all men to be saved, yes, of course. It is men who, by their own free will, will themselves into damnation. God Himself said that to *not* believe in Him is a sin; John 16:9. This is Divine Revelation, so there is no getting around it.

Please note that God did not make nor offer any of the qualifications or exceptions/exemptions that BODers necessarily and absolutely have got to make in order to give a semblance of credence to their idea. He said those who do not believe in Him sin - period.

Because God and the Church are one, those who do not believe Him do not believe in the Church, ergo, they remain outside of the Church until / unless they believe and are baptized otherwise they are condemned, this truth is also Divine Revelation - Mark 16:16.   

So don't blame God for those who do not believe, in that arena, you, I, them, indeed all humans are all face the same challenge - which is why we all were created.

If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children.