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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41286 times)

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Offline WorldsAway

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  • Surely this affirms BOD and does not condemn it. The obvious sense of the words is not 'without the laver of regeneration and the desire', as you want to make it say, but one or the other, the laver of regeneration or the desire of the laver of regeneration. Otherwise, the Council would be saying that the baptism of a baby is not effected until it is old enough to also have the desire. Surely you can see that.
    One cannot be justified with the "laver of regeneration" alone, but must also have the desire for it. Do you agree?

    Sorry, I missed your comment about infant baptism. I thought that the desire was supplied by those that bring the infant to be baptised? However, let me rephrase my question.

    An adult cannot be justified with the laver of regeneration while lacking the desire for it. Do you agree?
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • CMRI Have a Very Thorough Treatment of the Subject, God Bless them:

    Well, God won't bless them for their article (published) twice that directly and verbatim contradicts Catholic dogma:  "The Salvation of those Outside the Church" (the equivalent of having an article entitled "The Original Sin of Mary").


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Council of Trent, Session VI, January 13, 1547, Decree on Justification:

    "...By which words a description of the justification of the impious is indicated - as being a translation of that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, Our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof, as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

    Surely this affirms BOD and does not condemn it. The obvious sense of the words is not 'without the laver of regeneration and the desire', as you want to make it say, but one or the other, the laver of regeneration or the desire of the laver of regeneration.

    Surely it does nothing of thie sort.  "The wedding cannot take place without the bride or the groom."  So we can have either the bride or ELSE the groom, and the wedding could take place?

    If you try to make this into an either ... or type of statement, you have serious problems:

    1) you claim that the laver of regeneration justifies without the desire (anathematized by Trent)
    2) you elminate any notion of BoB that is distinct from and does not reduce to BoD (so the "three baptisms" become two)
    3) if justification can happen with JUST the desire for it, the logical corollary is that justification can take place WITHOUT the laver ... which would be a denial of that same doctrine that Trent was dogmatically teaching, in other words, making Trent teach the same heresy it was trying to condemn

    In order to teach what you claim it teaches here, Trent could easily have used an expresson like "vel saltem" (or at least) by desire, as it did for the Sacrament of Confession, or could have used the "vel ... vel" (either/or or both, whereas "aut" is either ... or but not both in positive expressions).  Trent used both these expressions in its treatment of Confession.

    In order to avoid interpreting Trent as teaching the heresy of #3 (that justification can take place WITHOUT the laver), the expression should have been, in Latin, "sine vel lavacro vel voto", using an inclusive or (rather than a disjuctive "aut" version of or) that does not teach that it can happen with the desire but without the laver.

    There's a reason for the negative expression here, "Justification cannot happen without ..."  It could have easily been made positive, along the lines of "Justification occurs by the laver or the desire," but this "Justification cannot happen without" implies necessary but not sufficient causes.  If you were to say that "Justification happens by ...", you're not excluding that justification may also take place by other means.  When you say that "Justification cannot happen without ..." you're saying that without these, it's not possible.

    Trent was teaching here about the cooperation of free will with grace in the process of justification, against the Protestant errors, and if Trent were intending to teach about the "Three Baptisms," it surely would have mentioned "Baptism of Blood", which it nowhere does.

    Offline Stubborn

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  • Sorry, I missed your comment about infant baptism. I thought that the desire was supplied by those that bring the infant to be baptised? However, let me rephrase my question.

    An adult cannot be justified with the laver of regeneration while lacking the desire for it. Do you agree?
    No, this is not necessarily always the case.  An unconscious catechumen is one example. 

    One who desires to gets baptized and actually gets baptized only so he can marry, or receive an inheritance, or to please someone, or gets baptized outside of the Church, is not only *not* justified, but also receives the sacrament sacrilegiously. 

    But what point is it that you're trying to make?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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  • No, this is not necessarily always the case.  An unconscious catechumen is one example.

    One who desires to gets baptized and actually gets baptized only so he can marry, or receive an inheritance, or to please someone, or gets baptized outside of the Church, is not only *not* justified, but also receives the sacrament sacrilegiously.

    But what point is it that you're trying to make?
    That you for the response, I understand your point about sacrilegious baptism. But wouldn't an unconscious catechumen have implicit desire, considering the fact that he is a catechumen? I don't exactly have a dog in the fight, I was just looking for clarification about the interpretation of Trent that says the desire of the laver alone can justify.


     

    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108


    Offline Stubborn

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  • That you for the response, I understand your point about sacrilegious baptism. But wouldn't an unconscious catechumen have implicit desire, considering the fact that he is a catechumen? I don't exactly have a dog in the fight, I was just looking for clarification about the interpretation of Trent that says the desire of the laver alone can justify.
    Ah ok, yes, I would also say that by definition the catechumen desires the sacrament, even tho while he is unconscious he cannot desire it at that time. I think this is along the lines of Trent's catechism, which says if someone is insane but previous to their insanity desired the sacrament, they can be baptized.  
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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  • Ah ok, yes, I would also say that by definition the catechumen desires the sacrament, even tho while he is unconscious he cannot desire it at that time. I think this is along the lines of Trent's catechism, which says if someone is insane but previous to their insanity desired the sacrament, they can be baptized. 
    Yes, I may have been muddling my words in my original comments so bear with me haha

    These are the scenarios I was envisioning

    Quote
    Trent teaches that the laver of regeneration and the desire for the laver are necessary for justification

    Laver and Desire = Justification (In the case of infants is the desire supplied? Is desire implied with unconscious catechumens?)
    Laver but No Desire = No Justification (Such as your examples of sacrilegious baptisms)
    No Laver but Desire = No Justification
    or

    Quote
    Trent teaches that the laver of regeneration or at least the desire for the laver are necessary for justification

    Laver and Desire = Justification
    Laver but no Desire = No Justification(?)
    No laver but Desire = Justification

    So with the first interpretation, Trent is explicitly stating that with the laver, the desire for the laver is also necessary for justification. That makes sense to me, that no one can be justified without desiring it.  If I run up to a Muslim and quickly use the form of baptism with the proper matter, he isn't justified because he did not desire baptism. (That wouldn't even be a valid baptism, correct?)

    With the second interpretation, the line from Trent is no longer explicitly saying that you need the laver with the desire for the laver to be justified. Is it implied that if you receive the laver, you must also have the desire to receive it in order to be justified?
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Offline Stubborn

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  • Yes, I may have been muddling my words in my original comments so bear with me haha

    These are the scenarios I was envisioning
    Quote
    Trent teaches that the laver of regeneration and the desire for the laver are necessary for justification 

    Laver and Desire = Justification (In the case of infants is the desire supplied? Is desire implied with unconscious catechumens?)
    Laver but No Desire = No Justification (Such as your examples of sacrilegious baptisms)
    No Laver but Desire = No Justification

    or
    Quote
    Trent teaches that the laver of regeneration or at least the desire for the laver are necessary for justification

    Laver and Desire = Justification
    Laver but no Desire = No Justification
    No laver but Desire = Justification

    So with the first interpretation, Trent is explicitly stating that with the laver, the desire for the laver is also necessary for justification. That makes sense to me, that no one can be justified without desiring it.  If I run up to a Muslim and quickly baptize him, he isn't justified because he did not desire baptism.

    With the second interpretation, the line from Trent is no longer explicitly saying that you need the laver with the desire for the laver to be justified. Is it implied that if you receive the laver, you must also have the desire to receive it in order to be justified?
    Well yes, for adults the desire is necessary for justification, but Trent does not teach your second example, so not sure what to make of it.

    See, the specific teachings are specifically worded in a negative tenor. Your examples are in the positive - which is the way BODers read the same teachings which only adds to their confusion. 

    When Trent says justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or a desire for the sacrament, they are ruling out any possibility of justification without the sacrament of baptism. Whatever anyone else says to the contrary, Trent is clear. Again, if one thinks it is confusing, then what they need to do is realize that Trent concluded with "as it is written, unless a man....." so as to to cement the teaching and remove all doubt.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline OABrownson1876

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  • A number of years ago a Catholic buddy told me of  an actual case of a catechumen who was stricken and killed by a car during his procession into church to be baptized.  The BOD crowd might say, "Well, he went instantly to heaven because he desired it."  The other side might very well argue, "Well, perhaps he had impure motives in potentially receiving baptism and suffered God's vengeance."  I think the story was in American Ecclesiastical Review.

    Someone in this thread argued that the Church would never have canonized St. Thomas if his writings contained theological error.  The point is - and has been alluded to several times in this thread - the collected works of St. Thomas is twenty-five volumes in Latin.  Most of St. Thomas' works have never been been translated into English; and, if I recall from my college days, sixty percent of St. Thomas has never been translated.  The whole idea that a voluminous doctor, even of the stature of St. Thomas, could spend his days writing many volumes, without ever falling into error, is ridiculous.  The same could be said of the any of the fathers.  Even St. Augustine somewhere in his Retractions said, "Formerly I have written that the Good Thief was not baptized, however, I do not know whether the Good Thief was baptized."  The very fact that St. Augustine would revisit his own works is proof enough that they might have contained errors.

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    Offline WorldsAway

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  • Well yes, for adults the desire is necessary for justification, but Trent does not teach your second example, so not sure what to make of it.

    See, the specific teachings are specifically worded in a negative tenor. Your examples are in the positive - which is the way BODers read the same teachings which only adds to their confusion. 

    When Trent says justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or a desire for the sacrament, they are ruling out any possibility of justification without the sacrament of baptism. Whatever anyone else says to the contrary, Trent is clear. Again, if one thinks it is confusing, then what they need to do is realize that Trent concluded with "as it is written, unless a man....." so as to to cement the teaching and remove all doubt.
    I see. My second example is what I took the pro-BOD interpretation to be. Thank you again for your responses, I do appreciate it
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • St Robert Bellarmine was born a few years before the start of the Council of Trent. In his work De Ecclesia, Book III: On The Church Militant, Chapter III On the Unbaptised, he teaches this:

    "... it is said outside the Church no man is saved, and this ought to be understood on those who are neither in fact nor in desire within the Church, just as all the Theologians commonly teach on Baptism. Moreover, if the Catechumens are not in the Church de facto, at least they are in the Church in desire, therefore they can be saved. This is not opposed to the similitude of the Ark of Noah (outside of which no man was saved), even if he were in it by desire since similitudes do not agree in all things. For that reason, 1 Peter 3 compares Baptism to the ark of Noah and still it is certain that some are saved without Baptism in fact.

    "But one might say, Augustine says that Catechumens are in the Church; it is true, but in the same place he separates them from the faithful. Therefore, he meant that they are in the Church not by act, but by potency, which he explains in the beginning of the 2nd book on the Creed, where he compares Catechumens to men who are conceived but not yet born."

    It is certain that some are saved without Baptism in fact. It is certain. Immediately following the Council of Trent. Saint, Bishop and Doctor of the Church, St Robert Bellarmine.


    Offline In Principio

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  • St Robert Bellarmine was born a few years before the start of the Council of Trent. In his work De Ecclesia, Book III: On The Church Militant, Chapter III On the Unbaptised, he teaches this:

    "... it is said outside the Church no man is saved, and this ought to be understood on those who are neither in fact nor in desire within the Church, just as all the Theologians commonly teach on Baptism. Moreover, if the Catechumens are not in the Church de facto, at least they are in the Church in desire, therefore they can be saved. This is not opposed to the similitude of the Ark of Noah (outside of which no man was saved), even if he were in it by desire since similitudes do not agree in all things. For that reason, 1 Peter 3 compares Baptism to the ark of Noah and still it is certain that some are saved without Baptism in fact.

    "But one might say, Augustine says that Catechumens are in the Church; it is true, but in the same place he separates them from the faithful. Therefore, he meant that they are in the Church not by act, but by potency, which he explains in the beginning of the 2nd book on the Creed, where he compares Catechumens to men who are conceived but not yet born."

    It is certain that some are saved without Baptism in fact. It is certain. Immediately following the Council of Trent. Saint, Bishop and Doctor of the Church, St Robert Bellarmine.
    St. Robert Bellarmine didn't just teach BOD, he taught that the Council of Trent teaches BOD. Is anyone going to say that the words of the Council can't be misunderstood, and at the same time say St. Robert Bellarmine misunderstood them?  Or is anyone willing to claim they understand what the council meant better than St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus Liguori, Suarez, Cornelius a Lapide, and many more who specifically understood the Council to be teaching BOD?

    St. Robert Bellarmine, De Baptismo, Lib. I, Cap. VI

    Quote
    But it must be believed without doubt that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when, not of contempt, but of necessity some die without Baptism of water.  It is expressly stated, Ezech. 18, if the wicked do penance for all his sins, I will not remember all his iniquities.  Thus also Ambrose clearly teaches in his oration on the death of Valentinian the younger:  Whom I was, he says, about to regenerate, I have lost; but he did not lose the grace which he had hoped for.  Thus also Augustine lib.4. de baptism, cap.22. & Bernard epist.77 & after them Innocent III. cap. Apostolicam, de presbytero non baptizato, whence also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4 says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire.


     "The faithful should obey the apostolic advice not to know more than is necessary, but to know in moderation." - Pope Clement XIII, In Dominico Agro (1761) 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • St Robert "believed" that catechumens might have BOD.  Ok, fine.  St Thomas talks about the same thing.

    The heresy begins when you start to apply the word "catechumen" incorrectly.  When you say that Jєωs, muslims, pagans, unbaptized protestants, etc can have BOD.  They cannot and that is grave error and a denial of Trent.  Why?  Because these groups of people cannot be catechumens, in the proper sense.

    If one is a formal catechumen, this means they have 1) rejected their former false religion, 2) are formally learning the Faith at a Catholic Church, 3) have an express desire to become a Catholic.

    If someone does not fulfill the above general requirements, then they aren't a catechumen and the St Thomas/St Robert's writings don't apply.

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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  • St Robert "believed" that catechumens might have BOD.  Ok, fine.  St Thomas talks about the same thing.

    The heresy begins when you start to apply the word "catechumen" incorrectly.  When you say that Jєωs, muslims, pagans, unbaptized protestants, etc can have BOD.  They cannot and that is grave error and a denial of Trent.  Why?  Because these groups of people cannot be catechumens, in the proper sense.

    If one is a formal catechumen, this means they have 1) rejected their former false religion, 2) are formally learning the Faith at a Catholic Church, 3) have an express desire to become a Catholic.

    If someone does not fulfill the above general requirements, then they aren't a catechumen and the St Thomas/St Robert's writings don't apply.

    Here, here.  I get tired of people arguing that an unrepentant Protestant/Jew/musloid/whatever can be saved by BOD.  Why don't we apply this "logic" to Stalin, Hitler, Cromwell..........

    So many modernists....so little time.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • Here, here.  I get tired of people arguing that an unrepentant Protestant/Jєω/musloid/whatever can be saved by BOD.  Why don't we apply this "logic" to Stalin, Hitler, Cromwell..........

    So many modernists....so little time.
    A Protestant, is possibly/likely baptised, in which case BOD would not apply, but who can know if a Protestant is "unrepentant" when he dies? Who knows the state of any soul entering their eternity? God alone, unless by special revelation.

    Cromwell, being a Puritan, was also almost certainly baptised.

    Stalin and Hitler were born Catholics and surely received the sacrament of baptism. You definitively exclude the possibility of their conversion, the possibility that they died in God's grace? That is not Catholic. Admittedly, who would want to be in their shoes? But that is beside the point.

    The infidel, the pagan? Let it suffice to say, that if they are saved, it is only in and through the Catholic Church. Imagine some pygmy in a rainforest in deepest darkest Africa isolated from all civilization, let alone Christianity. Did God create this soul? Does He have an infinite love for them? Does he not desire the salvation of that soul that He created infinitely? Will He not give them the means to attain the end for which He created them, and which He Himself infinitely desires? Given that the Church teaches BOD, obviously God does save souls without the ordinary means of sacramental baptism. Now if a soul like this, in invincible ignorance, seeks and desires God and wants with all his heart to know and love and obey Him, will God not take this desire, just like He takes BOD, for the reality of Charity and take that soul to rejoice with Him in the blessedness of Heaven? No one is saying it is not rare. No one is denying EENS. God's mercy is infinite. That does not deny His Justice. Any soul, whoever and wherever they may be, that truly seeks God in this life, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Moslem... any soul that seeks God will not be confounded. You judge the exterior. God judges the interior. God looks at the heart.