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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64621 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2023, 06:45:30 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on March 15, 2023, 05:18:39 AM
If "Baptism of Desire" was something contained in the "deposit of Faith" and part of the Apostolic doctrine, why then would these faithful be grieved that Valentinlan had not been baptized with water?

The reason these faithful were grieved was because they believed that "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
This was, of course, in the Fourth Century, the Church had not long been out of exile. The Deposit of Faith was far from being clearly expounded on many things. Just think, St Augustine had only just started writing about Grace... It is understandable that the faithful may have had too-concrete an understanding of the necessity of Baptism. For what is the ordinary means of salvation does not limit the One Who established those means. Hence the instruction given to them by St Ambrose for their consolation. How could St Thomas speak so prolifically and with such certainty and eloquence on Baptism of Desire if Brother Francis were correct? How could he even be canonised, let alone held as the prince of theologians, if his theology contained errors against Apostolic doctrine? Do you really prefer Br Francis to St Thomas, Stubborn? How could St Thomas miss the fact that these faithful were grieved for this reason and not understand it as Apostolic doctrine which admits of no exception? it's ludicrous. St Thomas explains in the Summa "The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed." 


A little more context from the great Latin Doctor, Ambrose, himself - it is very clear what he is instructing them. Surely the servants do not know better than the master:

(51) But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request?* But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified his desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7).

(52) Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to Thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected … He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace?

(53) Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.

(54) Do not, I beseech, O Lord, separate him from his brother, do not break the yoke of this pious relationship. Now Gratian, already Thine, and vindicated by Thy judgment, is in further peril, if he be separated from his brother, if he deserve not to be with him through whom he has deserved to be vindicated. …

(55) Your father also is present [Valentinian I], who under Julian spurned imperial service and the honours of the tribunate out of his love for the faith. Give to the father his son, to the brother his brother, both of whom he imitated, the one by his faith, the other equally by his devotion and piety …

(56) Offer the holy mysteries with your hands, with devoted love let us ask for his repose. Offer the heavenly sacraments, let us accompany the soul of our son with our oblations. ‘Lift up with me, O people, your hands to the holy place’ (Psalm 133(134):2), so that at least through this service we may repay him for his deserts. Not with flowers shall I sprinkle his grave, but I shall bedew his spirit with the odor of Christ. Let others scatter lilies in basketfuls. Christ is our lily, and with this lily I shall bless his remains, with this I shall recommend for his favor.

Source: Roy J. Deferrari, translator. “Consolation on the Death of Emperor Valerian.” Funeral Orations by Saint Gregory nαzιanzen and Saint Ambrose. The Fathers of the Church: A New Translation. New York: Fathers of the Church, 1953. 261–299, at 287–289. Retrieved from the Internet Archive, 23 September 2013.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2023, 07:29:45 AM »
Quote from: Plenus Venter on March 15, 2023, 01:45:24 AM
In The Teaching of the Catholic Church by Canon George Smith (1960), it states regarding Baptism of Desire that "today it is the opinion of all theologians":  The Teaching of the Catholic Church; a summary of Catholic doctrine : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive p382-385

Sure, and less than 5 years later, "Religious Liberty" was the "opinion of all theologians".  I love this inconsistency from R&R here.

Canon Smith is not wrong, and he quite correctly characterizes it as an "opinion".  For 700 years, every theology followed the later-found-to-be-erroneous opinion of St. Augustine regarding the fate of infants who die without Baptism.

So what of it?

PS -- we're all quite well aware of the opinion of St. Thomas et al, so no need to spam it in.  We disagree with St. Thomas on this point, as we also disagree with him about the Immaculate Conception.  There's never been any theological proof for Baptism of Desire and it can never surpass the theological note of speculation.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2023, 07:32:03 AM »
As for your Valentinian spam, St. Ambrose likened this state to that of unbaptized martyrs, but says of the martyrs also that they are "washed but not crowned".  In other words, St. Ambrose believed that this piety/zeal/confession could remit or wash sin but it could not result in "crowning", i.e. entering the Kingdom of Heaven and the Beatific Vision.  In other words, a justification without salvation ... just as Father Feeney held.

So, fail on the Valentinian quote.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2023, 07:35:34 AM »
Well, the whole a BOD subject is actually kinda ridiculous imo, I mean, the first ridiculous thing is that the idea itself is only ever defended by those already baptized, think about that for a minute.

I also think in some way that it may well be possible that God may be offended because His own faithful people are promoting the idea that He cannot or will not provide the sacrament that He very clearly mandated as a requirement for salvation (and on that account is obligated to provide), regardless of circuмstances. 





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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2023, 07:50:54 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 14, 2023, 10:38:06 PM
This is correct.  Even the term that's commonly translated into English as "accident" simply means circuмstance.  This passage merely echoes nearly verbatim the teaching of St. Fulgentius who taught that confession of the faith can avail to salvation ... by keeping someone alive until God can bring them the Sacrament of Baptism.

Yes, I recall you posting something from St. Fulgentius that had a striking similarity in language. It'd be nice to see that quote again.

The specific language of the Catechism of Trent, in one translation, is:

Quote
On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml

While waiting for the quote from St. Fulgentius, I post the following quote from the theologians who annotated John 3:5 in the first English translation of the Douay Rheims in 1582, roughly contemporaneous with the Catechism and the Council of Trent, who said basically the same thing as the Catechism of Trent:


Quote
5. Born again of Water.] As no man can enter into this world nor have his life and being in the same, except he be born of his carnal parents: no more can a man enter into the life and state of grace which is in Christ, or attain to life everlasting, unless he be born and baptized of water and the Holy Ghost. Whereby we see first, this Sacrament to be called our regeneration or second birth, in respect of our natural and carnal which was before. Secondly, that this sacrament consisteth of an external element of water, and internal virtue of the Holy Spirit: Wherein it excelleth John's baptism, which had the external element, but not the spiritual grace. Thirdly, that no man can enter into the Kingdom of God, nor into the fellowship of Holy Church, without it.

Whereby the *Pelagians, and Calvinists be condemned, that promise life everlasting to young children that die without baptism, and all other that think only their faith to serve, or the external element of water superfluous or not necessary: our Saviour's words being plain and general. Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remediless necessity could not obtain it. Lastly, it is proved that this Sacrament giveth grace ex opere operator, that is, of the work itself (which all Protestants deny) because it so breedeth our spiritual life in God, as our carnal birth giveth the life of the world.

It'd be nice to see St. Fulgentius's quote, the Douay Rheims annotation, and the Catechism quote lined up.

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