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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64268 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #495 on: April 22, 2023, 03:57:03 PM »
Lad is going to have to explain how his view is  compatible with Trent. That’s the bottom line. He must explain through Trent that his position is consistent or he are in error.

I've spent several pages on this subject during the thread.  Go back and read it instead of hopping on 25+ pages in and then demanding that I repost stuff that I've already explained.  There's zero way that your BoD interpretation of Trent can hold water.  No one refuted my reasoning.

I used to believe in BoD because I thought, "Trent taught it." But then I sat down one day to read all of Trent in Latin (vs. a sentence taken out of context and in misleading English translation) and I thought, "Wait a minute.  There's no BoD here anywhere.  What are they talking about?"  And I re-read it looking for "BoD" but no signs of it were to be found.

But people just beg the question, read BoD into Trent, and then keep repasting it assuming that your interpretation is true.  It's not.  But let's say for a moment that your reading of it is correct.  An honest BoDer here on CI, ByzCat, recognized that Trent is not teaching BoD as required for belief but rather, permitted for belief, effectively saying, "You can't say that Baptism isn't necessary at least in desire without being a heretic."  There's no positive teaching anywhere that positively states that the votum would suffice for justification, no Canon that states, "If anyone says that votum alone without the Sacrament suffices for justification, let him be anathema."  If Trent were teaching the alleged "Three Baptisms," where's the mention of BoB?  In fact, if you read Trent the BoDer way, there's no such thing as BoB.  And, if you read Trent the BoDer way, as an either / or for justification, the logical corollary is that there can be justification WITHOUT Baptism, but that's condemned as heretical by Trent.  So you would have Trent be teaching the same heresy it condemns.  Finally, the proof text that Trent gives for justification would be absurd, making Trent teach, "You can be justified by the laver or the desire, because Christ taught that both water AND the Holy Ghost are necessary for justification."  It's preposterous and these arguments have never been refuted.  You just keep re-pasting Trent while assuming that the BoDer understanding of it is the correct one.  It's not.

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #496 on: April 22, 2023, 04:39:56 PM »
I've spent several pages on this subject during the thread.  Go back and read it instead of hopping on 25+ pages in and then demanding that I repost stuff that I've already explained.  There's zero way that your BoD interpretation of Trent can hold water.  No one refuted my reasoning.

I used to believe in BoD because I thought, "Trent taught it." But then I sat down one day to read all of Trent in Latin (vs. a sentence taken out of context and in misleading English translation) and I thought, "Wait a minute.  There's no BoD here anywhere.  What are they talking about?"  And I re-read it looking for "BoD" but no signs of it were to be found.

But people just beg the question, read BoD into Trent, and then keep repasting it assuming that your interpretation is true.  It's not.  But let's say for a moment that your reading of it is correct.  An honest BoDer here on CI, ByzCat, recognized that Trent is not teaching BoD as required for belief but rather, permitted for belief, effectively saying, "You can't say that Baptism isn't necessary at least in desire without being a heretic."  There's no positive teaching anywhere that positively states that the votum would suffice for justification, no Canon that states, "If anyone says that votum alone without the Sacrament suffices for justification, let him be anathema."  If Trent were teaching the alleged "Three Baptisms," where's the mention of BoB?  In fact, if you read Trent the BoDer way, there's no such thing as BoB.  And, if you read Trent the BoDer way, as an either / or for justification, the logical corollary is that there can be justification WITHOUT Baptism, but that's condemned as heretical by Trent.  So you would have Trent be teaching the same heresy it condemns.  Finally, the proof text that Trent gives for justification would be absurd, making Trent teach, "You can be justified by the laver or the desire, because Christ taught that both water AND the Holy Ghost are necessary for justification."  It's preposterous and these arguments have never been refuted.  You just keep re-pasting Trent while assuming that the BoDer understanding of it is the correct one.  It's not.
I wasn't referring to BoD here, I was asking for an explanation on how your view of non saving Justification is in line with Trent's decree.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #497 on: April 22, 2023, 05:38:28 PM »
I wasn't referring to BoD here, I was asking for an explanation on how your view of non saving Justification is in line with Trent's decree.

What are you babbling about again?  You're reading that justification always saves into Trent.  You read your nonsense into Trent and then claim your distortion of Trent is what Trent taught.

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #498 on: April 23, 2023, 12:09:40 AM »
What are you babbling about again?  You're reading that justification always saves into Trent.  You read your nonsense into Trent and then claim your distortion of Trent is what Trent taught.
You know exactly what I am "babbling about". You said " In other words, a justification without salvation ... just as Father Feeney held." I want you to explain this. I posted my argument that to be justified is to be saved. Now please post yours. If I am "reading into" trent and my view is in error then correct me. I posted on page 30 my quotes that go against your view of justification without saving.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #499 on: April 23, 2023, 10:44:08 AM »
You know exactly what I am "babbling about".

No, I really don't.  If you're talking about initial justification not placing positive obstacles to salvation, that's all it says, not that it suffices for entry into the Kingdom.  St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist also had no obstacles positive obstacles in terms of guilt of sin, but they couldn't enter Heaven regardless.  Not having positive obstacles is not the same thing as having been elevated to the state in which one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  That's my theory, and has absolutely nothing to do with the interpretation of Trent that we're arguing about, but was thrown out there as a distraction from your being unable to refute my arguments..

Are you prepared to denounce St. Alphonsus' theory that temporal punishment can remain after initil justification by BoD?  Because if you don't, then you have nothing to stand on in denouncing my theory either.