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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64268 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #480 on: April 21, 2023, 02:16:14 PM »
I admire Mr Brownson for his commentary on many things in the social/political realm.  His opinions on theology are just as good as mine; he's not even a cleric.  Who cares what he thinks of BOD?  :laugh1:

Pax,


You're missing the point. If you call yourself "OABrownson," you obviously hold Brownson in high regard. Therefore, his opinion on something would mean something to you, or at least be worth serious respect and consideration. I mentioned Brownson's view to him in this instance in that limited respect.

This seems to be a pattern around here: reading things in the wrong way and then attacking them or commenting on them as thus misunderstood . . . or worse, as being libelous.


Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #481 on: April 21, 2023, 02:17:11 PM »
Who, me?  I've cited those same passages from Trent in this very thread to say the exact opposite of what you attribute to me above.
Correct me if I'm mistaken but don't you believe that "Baptism of Desire" regenerates a man without remitting all sin so as to merit immediate entrance into heaven?

Don't you believe that initial justification can be incomplete?

Or do you believe one can be justified without regeneration?


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #482 on: April 21, 2023, 03:45:53 PM »
Correct me if I'm mistaken but don't you believe that "Baptism of Desire" regenerates a man without remitting all sin so as to merit immediate entrance into heaven?

Don't you believe that initial justification can be incomplete?

Or do you believe one can be justified without regeneration?

Yeah, you're wrong.  I don't believe in a Baptism of Desire.  Not sure where you got this.  Pretty much everyone here knows this.

Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #483 on: April 21, 2023, 03:53:06 PM »
BTW, who is the "us"? Do you fancy yourself a monarch . . . or the pope?

I do sort of feel like a monarch in my own home, but that is by way of analogy.  As to your Brownson quote, it is part two of the article, "The Great Question."   Brownson wrote the article in opposition to Mr. Penny, an Anglican who converted to the Church.  Brownson sums up his purpose for the writing of the article in part I: "The point, then, at which we are to aim cannot be doubtful. We are called specially to convince the American population that they have souls, souls to be saved or lost, and which cannot be saved without Jesus Christ in his Church."  The entire thrust of the article is aimed against liberalism, it is a condemnation of Protestantism, and the attempt to understand Catholic truth in a Protestant country or civilization.  Brownson toward the end of the article mentions Bellarmine and others, but does not defend what you claim he defends.  Brownson has written more than any man in history, as the picture should amply prove. A man can hide within the works of Brownson and almost defend any position, without giving any context.  Brownson never held some watered-down version of a heretic being saved because he "desired it."  Brownson in many ways is the epitome of the man who "desired" the Truth, and thus it was revealed to him.  He grew up in the Green Mountains of Vermont, without any schooling, without any Catholic church, and without any person telling him what to do to be saved.  He consumed books and read dictionaries, teaching himself all the romance languages, Greek and Latin, and all else. 

Brownson in his own day was misunderstood by laymen, priests, and bishops, and accused of things which he neither asserted nor believed. These people who either did not read Brownson, or having read him sloppily, misunderstood him, were not Vatican II theologians.  Many of them were theologians formed in the American seminaries, seminaries in the 1800's.  There is a reason that the fathers at the Council of Baltimore sent a letter to Dr. Brownson declaring him "Defender of the Faith."  Brownson was not some two-bit theologian, opening the door of salvation to any liberal who whines loudly enough.  Brownson once picked up a Protestant and threw him over a wood-burning stove because he would not shut his mouth about Our Lady.       
 



Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #484 on: April 21, 2023, 04:39:58 PM »
I do sort of feel like a monarch in my own home, but that is by way of analogy.  As to your Brownson quote, it is part two of the article, "The Great Question."  Brownson wrote the article in opposition to Mr. Penny, an Anglican who converted to the Church.  Brownson sums up his purpose for the writing of the article in part I: "The point, then, at which we are to aim cannot be doubtful. We are called specially to convince the American population that they have souls, souls to be saved or lost, and which cannot be saved without Jesus Christ in his Church."  The entire thrust of the article is aimed against liberalism, it is a condemnation of Protestantism, and the attempt to understand Catholic truth in a Protestant country or civilization.  Brownson toward the end of the article mentions Bellarmine and others, but does not defend what you claim he defends.  Brownson has written more than any man in history, as the picture should amply prove. A man can hide within the works of Brownson and almost defend any position, without giving any context.  Brownson never held some watered-down version of a heretic being saved because he "desired it."  Brownson in many ways is the epitome of the man who "desired" the Truth, and thus it was revealed to him.  He grew up in the Green Mountains of Vermont, without any schooling, without any Catholic church, and without any person telling him what to do to be saved.  He consumed books and read dictionaries, teaching himself all the romance languages, Greek and Latin, and all else.

Brownson in his own day was misunderstood by laymen, priests, and bishops, and accused of things which he neither asserted nor believed. These people who either did not read Brownson, or having read him sloppily, misunderstood him, were not Vatican II theologians.  Many of them were theologians formed in the American seminaries, seminaries in the 1800's.  There is a reason that the fathers at the Council of Baltimore sent a letter to Dr. Brownson declaring him "Defender of the Faith."  Brownson was not some two-bit theologian, opening the door of salvation to any liberal who whines loudly enough.  Brownson once picked up a Protestant and threw him over a wood-burning stove because he would not shut his mouth about Our Lady.     





Brownson,

Now I get a sense of how you could mistake what I said as libelous.

You say, Brownson "does not defend what (I) claim he defends." What exactly is your understanding of what I maintain Brownson "defends"?