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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64255 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #465 on: April 21, 2023, 11:56:13 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyPadua on April 21, 2023, 09:22:58 AM
Do you have a source and quote for this? I want to add it to my collection.

Also I don't see the Church improving until this 'hurdle' is overcome. Will the Son of Man find faith?

Sorry about the typo (faulty memory).  That was Pope St. Siricius (not Sulpicius as I wrote):
Quote
Pope St. Siricius, Decree to Himerius, A.D. 385:

LATIN: "Sicut sacram ergo paschalem reverentiam in nullo dicimus esse minuendam, ita infantibus qui necdum loqui poterunt per aetatem vel his, quibus in qualibet necessitate opus fuerit sacra unda baptismatis, omni volumus celeritate succurri, ne ad nostrarum perniciem tendat animarum, si negato desiderantibus fonte salutari exiens unusquisque de saeculo et regnum perdat et vitam.

“Therefore just as we say that the holy paschal observance is in no way to be diminished, we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”

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Offline CatholicInAmerica

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #466 on: April 21, 2023, 12:04:35 PM »
Quote from: AnthonyPadua on April 21, 2023, 07:40:27 AM
To be honest I didn't read your posts, they were long winded and seemed like fallible cope. Short and concise is easier on the attention span.

The Church has never taught Baptism of blood, and even refutes the very notion.

BoB is infallibly destroyed by Pope Eugene IV at Florence in Cantate Domino. You can quote hundreds of fallible statements of theological speculation, but unless you have infallible statements, then I do not care. Because the Church infallibly says, No/Cope to Baptism of blood.

Sorry I seem rude but I am tired of this three baptism cope and invincible ignorance heresy, even my sspx priest has mentioned it and sending him infallible quotes didn't help him. They just ignore and regurgitate the same fallible statements....

As blessed Eugene IV stated. No 'good' produces eternal reward for a person if they aren't united in the Church. Even shedding blood does not avail you to the beatific vision (which is certainly an eternal reward).

I don't know how ladislaus goes through walls of text of the same exact arguments over and over... But I'm glad he does.
“I didn’t read your arguments”… sounded like fallible cope? I cited Trent. Regarding what you say about Cantate Domino, that teaching is further explained in Trent’s decree on Justification. Baptism alone does not save, in the same way that Faith alone does not save. If you understand the true teaching on Justification, you will understand that even Baptism of water will not itself save a man unless he also have Faith and cooperate with Gods grace. Having Faith.. I.E. being in the bosom of the Church. A heretic could “shed blood” for the Church, but would not be saved as he is outside the church. 
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Offline CatholicInAmerica

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #467 on: April 21, 2023, 12:06:31 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 21, 2023, 05:41:59 AM
You have no idea what you're talking about, NonCathlicInAmerica.
Instead of name calling how about you show that YOUR POSITION is Compatible with Trent and Catholic teaching. How can one be Justified but not saved? Save the name calling for someone who is not of good will. I am trying to have a discussion. 
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Offline CatholicInAmerica

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #468 on: April 21, 2023, 12:09:42 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 21, 2023, 05:49:32 AM
According to St. Ambrose, there's a state of washing without crowning.  You do realize, right?, the the notion of CROWNing referred to entering the KINGdom of Heaven.

Pope St. Sulpicius dogmatically taught that ALL those who while desiring the Sacrament of Baptism died before receiving it would lose the Kingdom of Heaven.

5-6 Church Fathers rejected Baptism of Desire, several explicitly.  St. Augustine floated the idea in his youth but then later forcefully retracted it (he published an entire large book later in life called Corrections).  St. Ambrose speculated about a state of being washed without being crowned, while elsewhere declaring that Catechumens who die before initiated cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  Pope St. Sulpicius dogmatically rejected Baptism of Desire (a quote, like many others, that is strangely ommitted by BoDers).  You'll never see a BoDer quote the contrary evidence, but they selectively cherry-pick the one or two tenuous and tentative sources they can find in support of their speculation.
Explain this using the quote above and other quotes of ST. Ambrose then. I showed my citations now show
 yours 
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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #469 on: April 21, 2023, 12:40:56 PM »

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Baptism alone does not save, in the same way that Faith alone does not save.
False.  A valid sacramental baptism saves.



Quote
If you understand the true teaching on Justification, you will understand that even Baptism of water will not itself save a man unless he also have Faith and cooperate with Gods grace.
Here's your problem.  You are incorrectly using these terms, and causing confusion.

1.  The common understanding of "baptism of water" implies that it is valid, which further implies the person was properly disposed, which further implies they had natural faith.
2.  If one has been properly baptized, then they have received Supernatural Faith, which saves.
3.  One cannot have Supernatural/salvific Faith before/without the sacrament of baptism.
4.  If you are arguing that one can have Faith before/outside/without the sacrament, this is heresy.
5.  If you are using the phrase "baptism of water" to simply mean the pouring of water upon a person who doesn't want to be baptized, then your phrase is wrong and confusing.


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Having Faith.. I.E. being in the bosom of the Church.
There is natural faith and supernatural faith.  Supernatural Faith ONLY comes from the sacrament of baptism.  Ergo, only those who are baptized can be in the bosom of the Church.


"Having Faith" refers to natural faith, which, as Scripture says, "comes from hearing".  This is also akin to "having the will/desire" to be a member of the Church.  But no one can WILL to do anything supernatural; this is heresy.  All things supernatural are a gift from God, which we can ONLY get from the Church, through the sacraments.

If by "having Faith" you mean being sacramentally baptized, then I agree.  But again, your language is imprecise.


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A heretic could “shed blood” for the Church, but would not be saved as he is outside the church. 
An unrepentent heretic, I agree.  Typically, a heretic refers to a former member of the Church, which means they were already baptized, so all that they need to do to be saved is repent and confess.  I doubt an unrepentent heretic would die for the Church.  Seems contradictory.  But if they did, yes, they would not be saved.
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