Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64251 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #440 on: April 09, 2023, 10:14:24 AM »

But it is ridiculous to argue, for example, that the Catechism of Trent doesn't speak of a BOD and therefore lend the authoritative, interpretive voice of the Church to the meaning of Session VI, Chapter 4 of the Counsel. Even the Dimonds recognize that the Catechism speaks of BOD, but reject it on other grounds. 


Now you suddenly cite the Dimonds an authority?  It's absolutely not "ridiculous to argue" this.  There's no mention of "BoD", no assertion that someone could die before the Sacrament and still be saved ... once we dispense with the absurd mistranslation to "accident".  It leaves open how God will take care of the person who's properly disposed to the Sacrament.  It could just as easily be read in the St. Fulgentius sense as in the "BoD" sense, and it's left open by the Catechism.  There's no statement, again, once you remove the ridiculous (and probably deliberate) mistranslation to "accident" (which in English implies death), that if someone were to die in this state they'd be saved.  Nothing close to that.  But BoDers insist on reading this into the text because it's what they want to see there.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #441 on: April 09, 2023, 10:24:50 AM »

But to argue - as the Dimonds do - that the Council doesn't speak of BOD in light of the Catechism necessitates a rejection - which is radical - of what most "Feeneyites" don't reject - a view of the Magisterium and its "indefectibility" on pre-Vatican II terms, such as the impossibility of the Ecclessia Docens to teach serious theological errors in propagating the Catholic faith. Most "Feeneyites" want to have their cake (rejection of BOD) and eat that too (the "indefectibility" of a Magisterium that has taught BOD in its catechisms, etc.).


You keep reasserting this notion over and over again, despite it having been completely debunked.  There's no indication whatsoever that the Catechism is "interpreting" the contested passage in Trent.  In fact, it's going completely off script, attempting to explain something that was not directly addressed in Trent, namely, why infant Baptism should not be delayed, but it's OK and even advisable to delay adult Baptism.  And, as mentioned, what the Catechism writes does NOT translate to BoD.  It simply states, almost as St. Ambrose did, regarding Valentinian, or St. Fulgentius did when he stated that God would keep someone alive until they could receive the Sacrament, that God will take care of a properly-disposed adult.  Nowhere does it state the BoD principle:  "If such a one were to die before the Sacrament, he would be saved."  There's nothing in there along those lines, despite how hard the BoDers try to read that into it.  We could be talking about a scenario where someone gets badly injured, and yet God keeps him alive long enough to receive the Sacrament.  We could be talking about St. Ambrose's concept regarding Valentinian, that he would be "washed" even if not crowned.  We don't know.  And Trent doesn't answer the question either about HOW God would take care of such an individual.  Once you take off the table the bad translation (probably deliberately bad, just like the "except through" translation of Trent) to "accident", which in English implies some kind of fatal mishap, but in the Latin does nothing of the sort, there's absolutely zero reference to the BoD thesis found in the Catechism.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #442 on: April 09, 2023, 10:29:58 AM »

But to argue - as the Dimonds do - that the Council doesn't speak of BOD in light of the Catechism necessitates a rejection - which is radical - of what most "Feeneyites" don't reject - a view of the Magisterium and its "indefectibility" on pre-Vatican II terms, such as the impossibility of the Ecclessia Docens to teach serious theological errors in propagating the Catholic faith. Most "Feeneyites" want to have their cake (rejection of BOD) and eat that too (the "indefectibility" of a Magisterium that has taught BOD in its catechisms, etc.).

I say you can have one - rejection of BOD - but not the other (belief in the "indefectibility" of the universal teaching of the hierarchy on matters as essential to the Catholic faith as justification and the necessity of the actual receipt of the sacrament of baptism).

Your hypocrisy here is disgraceful.  You claim that an Ecuмenical Council can teach grave error to the Church but now suddenly claim that in order to uphold the indefectibility of the Church, someone would have to maintain that theologians are infallible and indefectible.  It doesn't get any more absurd than this.  You strawman an extreme notion of infallibility, the same one that many radical dogmatic SVs hold, onto "Feeneyites" in general.  Most Feeneyites are actually R&R, and the Dimonds have a more balanced view of infallibility than the exaggerations made by most dogmatic SVs.  But implicit in this particular rant is your attempt to justify your heretical rejection of what you consider to be an Ecuмenical Council as having taught grave error, falsely attempting to equate an Ecuмenical Council with the consensus of some theologians.  So you're conflating a couple differen strammen here ot hypocritically promote your position.  And on top of that you keep begging the question that BoD is "taught" by the Magisterium, which it is most certainly not.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #443 on: April 09, 2023, 10:35:24 AM »
1) Trent itself cannot be interpreted as teaching BoD.
2) Catechism of Trent does not teach BoD either, but leaves it open, how God would take care of well-disposed adult, and gives no indication of its being an interpretation of the contested passage in Trent.

None of this is undone by the constant gratuitous re-statement of these claims by the BoDers, and the arguments for 1 and 2 above have not been refuted.

This is typical of BoDer dishonesty, to simply keep restating their begged questions while refusing to address or refute the arguments presented against their opinions.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #444 on: April 09, 2023, 10:39:35 AM »
Before MHFM made their video on the Catechism of trent *teaching* BoD who used it as a talking point? From what I understand it was the dimonds who gave this false ammunition to BoDers.

Right, some of us disagree with the Dimonds on this point, and Decem is dishonest in somehow citing the Dimonds as an authority (one that he does not accept himself), claiming that we're in contradiction because we disagree with them on this point.  It's another dishonest logical fallacy.  I can't disagree with the Dimonds that the Catechism is not infallible, and yet I do disagree with them that the Catechism is teaching BoD.  They're wrong.